liberal pacifism?

[billc]

Here is a story about a cameraman assaulted, and caught on tape, after talking to a democrat politician.

http://bigjournalism.com/pjsalvator...-assaulted-after-democratic-senators-presser/

There are some other moments of liberal pacifism linked in the article.

 

[Steve]

What's liberal pacifism? Is that different from conservative pacifism?

 

[WC_lun]

Pacifist and liberal are not the same thing. Being a liberal does not mean being a pacifist and being a pacifist does not mean being a liberal. The title of your post seems to try and link them.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

To be fair, it seems like those ven diagrams overlap a little more often than those of conservatives and pacifists. But I agree...the guy doing that thumping isn't a hypocrite just because he's a liberal.

 

[Makalakumu]

This thread is an excellent example of how our political language has been changed 1984 style. Liberal used to mean classical liberal, as in believer in liberty, supporter of gun rights, self defense, AND they were pacifists. Liberals believed that you had no right to use force against another person and that you must voluntarily commit to all contracts.

Now a liberal is someone supports big government, wants the state to take care of you from cradle to grave, would like to limit your ability to defend yourself, would like to limit your ability to own firearms and would like to force you by the point of the governments weapons into agreements and contracts that fit their agenda.

A pacifist is no better. Now, a pacifist is equated to a liberal, except that they will lay down and not resist if force is used against them. Whether it's the government's tanks or a robber with a knife, it makes no difference, they will not resist the use of force against them. I think that the common thread between these two words is a denial of the right to live. One denies the individual the right to live as they want and the other denies the right to live if they want.

I reject both of these neo-definitions. I believe that the core of liberty is pacifism and that self defense is the only reasonable response to a threat on your life if you want to live. Not initiating force and defending against the use of force are two very different things. So, I'll happily call myself a liberal pacifist, I'm taking it back.

About the link, it's righty screed pointing out the hypocrisy of the lefties. To an extent I agree, because as much as a lefty drones on about peace, they love to use guns to make people do what they want. The missing piece here is that the right is just as hypocritical because they claim to be supporters of liberty which should mean that one really is committed to peace. However, they love to use guns to make people do what they want as well, even MORE so then the lefties.

In the end, it's a bunch of dishonest ********. Politics as usual.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I think you're also lumping terms together, my friend.

What you've described as "liberal" is a fair -if obviously from a Republican point of view - description of the leanings of our friends the Democrats.

Liberalism simply means being tolerant, even supportive of, change from the status quo. Conservativism means supporting the status quo and resisting change.

For reasons that aren't entirely clear to me, political dialog has turned Democrat and Liberal into synonyms. Same for Republican and Conservative.

They're not the same thing any more than liberal and pacifist are.

Just the two cents of your friendly neighborhood "Liberal Republican."

 

[Tez3]

What about the Quakers or Society of Friends? They are pacifists and some of the best people on this planet. They truly believe in being non violent and will not enlist or be conscipted into an armed force. During both world wars they however acted as medics often bravely saving lives at great risk to their own. They stand up for what they believe in and before you start chucking around epithets at pacifists do have a look at what true pacifists are.

 

[billc]

I know what true pacifists are, and I disagree with the belief, but that is why I coupled that with this video. Much of the political violence today comes almost exlusively from the left. At least in this country. Thuggish behavior, commited by liberals, a term picked because the older term, progressive had been used up, so they re-adopted liberal, against their opponents is happening more and more. This act was caught on tape, the riots at the various meetings of the various countries, the Gladney beating by S.E.I.U., the beating of Bobbie Jindals aide and her fiance, the black panther voter intimidation and so on. Then everyone implies that the tea party members are on the verge of violent actions, as they stroll around with baby strollers and go out of their way to pick up their trash. It is pretty funny.

 

[Tez3]

I know what true pacifists are, and I disagree with the belief, but that is why I coupled that with this video. Much of the political violence today comes almost exlusively from the left. At least in this country. Thuggish behavior, commited by liberals, a term picked because the older term, progressive had been used up, so they re-adopted liberal, against their opponents is happening more and more. This act was caught on tape, the riots at the various meetings of the various countries, the Gladney beating by S.E.I.U., the beating of Bobbie Jindals aide and her fiance, the black panther voter intimidation and so on. Then everyone implies that the tea party members are on the verge of violent actions, as they stroll around with baby strollers and go out of their way to pick up their trash. It is pretty funny.

Are you on the right in politics by any chance, it's hard to tell.

 

[billc]

I am a conservative who votes for republican candidate, having once been a democrat who voted for Bill Clinton.

 

[Tez3]

The Right wing dream

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(United_Kingdom)

http://www.bnp.org.uk/

Associated with them and employed by them for 'security' reasons are Combat 18. A really nice bunch of right wing guys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18

 

[billc]

Tez, those guys are actually lefties. They have nothing in common with American Conservatism. We believe in individual liberty for all people regardless of race, religion, national origin. We believe in the rights of the individual over the group. Got to go. I'll finish later.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, those guys are actually lefties. They have nothing in common with American Conservatism. We believe in individual liberty for all people regardless of race, religion, national origin. We believe in the rights of the individual over the group. Got to go. I'll finish later.

No, trust me they are right wing, they bear no resemblance to left wingers, in fact they beat them up every chance they get.

Look at the Wiki site, it says they are FAR RIGHT as is their French counterpart.

The Nazi party were (and in some places still are) Right Wing. The far right wing are fascists.

This is the extreme Right, the use of the word socialist is a misnomer, it's not socialism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism


This is Socialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

The far left are the communists, the left are the socialists.

 

[billc]

Again, National socialists are socialists. they believe in a big central government to get done the things they want done, American Conservatives believe in individual liberty, a color blind society, the founding documents of the United States, including the belief in all men( and to be inclusive) women are created equal with certain inalienable rights to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. We believe the government should be small, and hemmed in by checks and balances to keep it from becoming too powerful. The nazis, and neo-nazis don't believe those things. Check my other posts, the Red in the Nazi flag is the socialist red. Hang on, I will cut and paste. Be back.

This is from another post, it is Andrew Klavan addressing what you are saying, but in a funny way:

From Chapter 4, Left Right Dichotomy, Thomas Sowell, in his book "Intellectuals and Society": "...there is remarkably little difference between Communists and Fascists, except for rhetoric, and there is far more in common between fascists and even the moderate left than between them and the traditional conservatives in the American sense."

From Chapter 4, Left and Right Dichotomy, in Thomas Sowell's book, "intellectuals and society":

"What distinguished Fascist movements in general from Communist movements was that the Communists were officially committed to governmental ownership of the means of production,while fascists permitted private ownership of the means of production, so long as government directed the private owner's decisions and limited what profit rates they could recieve. Both were totalitarian dictatorships but Communists were officially internationalist while Fascists were officially nationalist. However, Stalin's proclaimed policy of "Socialism in one country" was not very different from the Fascists' proclaimed policy of national socialism"

"WHEN IT CAME TO PRACTICE, THERE WAS EVEN LESS DIFFERENCE, SINCE THE COMMUNIST INTERNAITONAL SERVED THE NATIONAL INTERESTS OF THE SOVIET UNION, DESPITE WHATEVER INTERNATIONALIST RHETORIC IT USED."

​

"Communism is socialism with an international focus and totalitarian methods. Benito Mussolini, the founder of Fascism, defined fascism as national socialism in a state that was totalitarian, a term that he also coined. The same idea was echoed in the name of the National Socialist German Worker's Party in Germany, Hitler's party, now almost always abbreviated as Nazis, thereby burying its socialist component. Viewed in retrospect, the most prominent feature of the Nazis-racism in general and anti-jewish racism in particular-was not inherent in the fascist vision, but was an obsession of Hitler's party, not shared by the fascist government of Mussolini in Italy or that of Franco in Spain."

From Chapter 4, Left and Right dichotomay, from Thomas Sowell's book, "intellectuals and Society":

"In short, the notion that Communists and Fascists were at polar opposite poles ideologically WAS NOT TRUE, even in theory, much less in practice. As for similarities and differences between these two totalitarian movements and liberalism on the one hand, or conservatism(American) on the other, there was far more similarity between these totalitarian's agendas and those ot the left than with the agendas of most conservatives. FOR EXAMPLE, AMONG THE ITEMS ON THE AGENDAS OF THE FASCISTS IN ITALY AND/OR THE NAZIS IN GERMANY WERE:

1-GOVERNMENT CONTROL OF WAGES AND HOURS OF WORK
2-HIGHER TAXES ON THE WEALTHY
3-GOVERNMENT-SET LIMITS ON PROFITS
4-GOVERNMENT CARE FOR THE ELDERLY
5-A DECREASED EMPHASIS ON THE ROLE OF RELIGION AND THE FAMILY IN PERSONAL OR SOCIAL DECISIONS
6GOVERNMENT TAKING ON THE ROLE OF CHANGING THE NATURE OF PEOPLE, USUALLY BEGINNING IN EARLY CHILDHOOD....
THESE ARE OF COURSE THINGS OPPOSED BY MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED "CONSERVATIVES" IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THEY ARE THINGS MUCH MORE CONGENIAL TO THE GENERAL APPROACH OF PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED "LIBERALS" IN THE AMERICAN POLITICAL CONTEXT.

​

 

[Tez3]

Shakes head in disbelief.

Only in America

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics




http://www.responsiblecitizen.co.uk/left-wing-right-wing-and-the-centre.html
Left Wing

"Anyone or any party who is said to be left wing or left of centre can be broadly thought to be liberal. However, left wing goes much further than this. The main aim of left wing parties and individuals can be said to be social equality for all. This is why at the far left, parties such as Communists can be found.

Communism, very broadly speaking, is a political ideal where all are equal and there are no leaders. It has been tried many times in the past and there are a handful of countries which claim to practise true Communism but in reality, it is very difficult to achieve this Utopian society.
George Orwell’s Animal Farm is a fictional exploration of Communism, based on the Russian revolution of the early 20th century and shows how power almost always corrupts the ideal.
Less extreme left wing views include the UK’s Labour party and the USA’s Democrats. The NHS system was set up in pursuit of left wing ideals – free healthcare for all is a prime example of social equality in action. Modern left wing parties are more geared towards achieving a diverse society with inclusion for all."



Right Wing

Right wing parties and individuals are, as you would expect, the polar opposite of left wing. Right wing parties are often thought of as capitalists. They are also traditionalists in their outlook and the way they like things to be done.

This can obviously pose problems for modern right wing groups, such as in terms of equal opportunities for all, regardless of gender or race and so most modern and progressive right wing parties hold centrist or even slightly left of centre views on these issues.
As the main aim of right wing parties, the rights of the individual are held in high esteem. These come first, over and above the rights of society as a whole, which is clearly at odds with left wing politics.

Just like left wing though, right wing politics can be taken to extremes and for most people, especially in Europe, the terms used to describe very far right parties hold a sinister and very dark connotation. It must be stressed that these parties and individuals are on the extreme right, far removed from most right wing parties.
On the extreme right is fascism, that political ideal which can be partially blamed for the Second World War. The term is generally no longer used to describe political ideals but basically means a society where the state rules all, and the society is bound together by a common ideal, often, but not always, based on race. These days, being described as a fascist is usually an insult."

 

[Tez3]

Fascism is built on anti Semitism ( it's added hatred of Islam now), it wasn't just Hitler's brand btw. As for how Mussolini decribed things I don't think he's a very good source in all honesty, he was hardly a scholar and certainly no gentleman though he did say fascism is the complete opposite of Marxist communism.

The books you cite are only ones you've read because they confirm your views or they have formed your vies, I don't know which. I think you need to gt out of this 'big government' thing and actually look at what the various parties believe. The National Front here and in Europe is Far Right, very far right but still on the right, they are fascist organisations. The communist parties of which there are many types are on the far left.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

"The ideologies usually associated with the far right include fascism, Nazism and other ultra-nationalist, religiously extreme or reactionary ideologies"


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...The-far-right-march-rise-Fascism-Austria.html

"This is a neo-Nazi gathering and in the crowd are some of Austria’s most hard-faced fascists. Among them is Gottfried Kussel, a notorious thug who was the showman of Austria’s far-right movement in the Eighties and Nineties until he was imprisoned for eight years for promoting Nazi ideology. "

http://www.tellmehowto.net/howto/tell_left_wing_from_right_wing_888


http://www.fact-index.com/r/ri/right_wing_politics.html

http://www.fact-index.com/l/le/left_right_politics.html

 

[granfire]

are we again at it trying to explain why left and right is not the same?

 

[Tez3]

are we again at it trying to explain why left and right is not the same?

Yep, Bill thinks the Fascists, Nazis, National Front etc are left wing. I and most others think they are the far right wing.

we are talking at totally cross purposes lol!

 

[granfire]

Yep, Bill thinks the Fascists, Nazis, National Front etc are left wing. I and most others think they are the far right wing.

we are talking at totally cross purposes lol!

I suppose he has them aligned on something like a color wheel: Eventually everything comes full circle... :lfao:

but wait for the rebuttle: Stossle said they are all the same and Beck agreed!

 

[Tez3]

Well he did say they all have red flags.........!