Dancing or 'Kata'?

Discussion in 'Historical European Swords and Sword Arts' started by Sukerkin, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    I came across this whilst link surfing sword art stuff the other night and, whilst the lass performing is absolutely divine and worth watching just for herself {:)}, I was driven to wonder if this is just 'baton twirling' dressed up in period-like costume or whether there is some serious Cossack blade-work behind the dance?

    [yt]C4_PWKOCz0U[/yt]

    P.S. I note that there are some rather extremist comments below the video - I'd suggest ignoring those
     
  2. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Nice video. I'm not sure what is behind the moves, but fighting spirit and technique does show through.

    As far as the comments below the video, it sickens me the way peoples agenda has a way of permeating an otherwise nice performance.
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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  4. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    On the video, it's pretty and fun to watch, but I don't see a lot of martial in it. It's very much like the baton twirlers at the parade.
     
  5. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    WIth the Cossacks, and quite a few other traditions, this would be a mistake-the dance and the martial are intertwined-it isn't "kata," though-in this instance-but it is martial, even down to the transfer from hand to hand: a great deal of their swordwork is meant to be done from horseback, where such a switch might be absolutely necessary.

    As for the comments, what's going on in Russia right now is really, really scary-I, for one, won't be dragging my dark and obviously foreign *** over there any time soon!
     
  6. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    Sorry about that, Tez. I wasn't aware of that particular link to your own history, tho' I did know that "Cossack!" was used as an epithet at times. Please note, tho', that this is the Sword Arts sub-set of the site, so no connection should be inferred between an interest in a cultures sword arts and an implicit approval of the acts of the culture from which they came.

    After all, I study a Japanese Sword art and if I were to dwell too much upon the atrocities the creators of those techniques executed then I'd never pick up my katana again.
     
  7. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    :nods: Aye Elder, that was my impression too - I have seen it in more than one cultural weapon art where serious practise and 'display' were woven together.
     
  8. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Interestingly, Tez, the banner on the wall of that video indicates that these are Ukrainian cossacks, who historically had Jewish members-and, later, members of Jewish descent-in their society into the 19th century.

    In addition to the nationalist element, a lot of the discussion around these videos centers on authenticity and/or traditional content-it's just like almost any martial art: a lot of political mudslinging over who has the "right stuff." :lol:
     
  9. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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  10. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Oh no worries, I knew you didn't mean anything by it, I just thought I'd explain why those rather nasty comments were there. Seems a shame they have to spoil the video though.
    Elder, the Ukrainian Cassacks were the worse for persecuting the Jews, they were the ones who joined the Nazis and who are currently persecuting them, 13 Jews have been killed in the Ukraine over the past 5 years in anti semitic attacks with more injured. That badge on the wall is one being used by the ultra right wing activists which is why I assume the comments were made underneath the video. I suspect it's actually a political video rather than just one of a girl with a sword. I suspect too that the makers and the activists aren't necessarily true Cossacks.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/ukraine.html
     
  11. Master Dan

    Master Dan Master Black Belt

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    Getting back to atrocities, I watched an interview the other night about our decision to use the atom bomb on Japan and they took comments from an Japanese official who said he and others thought after the bombing that it was so outrageous that we could not be civilized people?? Do they not rember the Rape of China killing chopping 500,000 people of of shere blood lust. Worse I just learned they killed another 300,00 injecting people with diseases experimenting to build biological weopons.

    I could be wrong but as a people I think they have evolved from a fudal society to a more civilized society with compasion for others and I don't think we are hearing they want to return old ways of ethnic hate for others. We always think of Africa for being the worst for tribal atrocities agains each other but Europe certainly has past and present issue but to think of in our day one group or town going in and killing women and children to posses thier homes and property seems sureal?
     
  12. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    I'm not disputing any of that, Irene-the fact is, though, that the Zaporische Cossacks had Jewish members-some of whom converted to Christianity, and that Cossacks in general didn't give a fig about religion-the persecution of Jews didn't really begin for any of them until some time in the 18th or, in the case of the Ukrainian cossacks, 19th century. Some Ukrainians calling themselves "cossack" today likely have names that indicate their Jewish heritage.-Interesting tidbit:my great grandfather and his brother, the first Aaron Cuffee, bought seats on what would become the New York Commodities Exchange when it was founded as the New York Mercantile Exchange, in 1882. They were seafaring men, and-for the time-giants, at 6'10" or so. They couldn't trade at the exchange while at sea, and literally couldn't fit in the furniture provided, anyway-while most of the work was done standing, there were fixed "seats" with desks, and they were too big for them, so they hired a family to manage their trade-the Yudins were Ukrainian Jews from a Cossack family, and their great-grandchildren still trade on the COMEX-now, GLOBEX, for my family's trust.

    Only on a computer-they can use any damn kind of chair they want....:lol:

    Here's the first Aaron Cuffee:

    View attachment $snapshot50.png

    and here's my great grandfather, Nathan:

    View attachment $snapshot40.jpg

    I'll see if I have any Yudin (literally, "Jew", Jude, or Judea as a patrynomic) family photos to post.

    I said "interestingly," what I should have said was, "ironically."
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2012
  13. harlan

    harlan 2nd Black Belt

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    I've given it 38 seconds and I can watch no more. It's crap.

    Now, Sukerin, you study a koryu, do you not?
     
  14. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well my point is that I'm 95% sure this is a political video done for propaganda purposes which explains why she's just twirling a sword around rather than doing anything recognisable with it and why there's the 'supporters club' comments underneath. To be honest I'm less concerned about the antics of the Cossacks in the past but very concerned about their behaviour now.
     
  15. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Oh, I agree-there's a lot of better Ukrainian/Cossack/Khazak and Caucasian dancing and martial art out there than what she was doing, which was basically just a couple of basic moves and steps repeated ad nauseum-she is pretty, though. The original video-not the edited one Mark posted-has some other content,,,,


    Here's Russian novelist, Andrei Belyanin, demonstrating and explaning Cossack sword technique.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  16. harlan

    harlan 2nd Black Belt

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    Believe it or not, some families have long memories. My husband's family were kulaks in Tsarist Russia, and the family were decidedly anti-cossack due to memories of raids/assaults/murders. It's not an excuse for my short eval, but I've studied nationalist emergences and have little patience for (as you state) propaganda.

     
  17. pgsmith

    pgsmith Master Black Belt

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    It's a good thing not all do, because what the Europeans did to the native Americans is every bit as bad as anything the cossaks ever did. As far as the original video is concerned, I agree with Tez, purely propoganda. While the woman does a couple of interesting movements, they have obviously been repeated until she can do them smoothly as entertainment, not anything martial. Made me think of a flaming baton routine I saw once, only this one is much simpler and looks to have taken much less practice.

    Just my opinion.
     
  18. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    I think perhaps my question is getting lost here - what I was looking for was the opinions of people as to whether there were any actual techniques that formed the foundation of this routine as I know that some cultures have elements of their martial arts buried in their 'dances'.

    After all, I think (hope) that people (who had taken a look at my profile at least) would figure out without my having to say it that I know it looks all too much like the baton twirling that we see purported to be JSA on the UTubesz :lol:.
     
  19. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    And the short answer is "yes." :lol:
     
  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Shouldn't she have been on a horse or is that getting into fantasies that maybe belong somewhere else? :ultracool
     

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