'dancing on your grave'

[bushidomartialarts]

hi all,

fairly recent (4 years ago) transplant here from tracy to epak. i love and respect both takes on the art and have enjoyed even moreso the perspective gained from studying both. i do have one bone to pick with epak techniques and am curious if anybody out there can help me understand:

a lot of the brown-level techniques end with a several-step process of kicking the bad guy once he's down. examples would include the end of 'the bear and the ram' or 'falcons of force'. this seems to get even longer and (imho) sillier with many of the black belt extensions.

here's the trouble i have with these:

1. once the bad guy is down, running is the best defense 99% of the time. why risk the additional contact?

2. if you have to do it, why the long, drawn-out, step-by-step sequence? (i'm thinking specifically of 'the bear and the ram' here). at brown and black belt level, shouldn't we be moving towards more spontanaeity?

3. several of the two-man defenses have us doing this dancing on the grave while we remain bracketed by our opponents. this strikes me as unutterably daft.

i have great respect for epak and am probably missing the point. sadly, the guy who was teaching me epak is no longer available to ask (my current instructor is primarily a tracy guy). anyone out there have any thoughts?

 

[Ceicei]

Well, when it comes right down to the nitty-gritty, most of the techniques (especially the long ones) WILL NOT go to completion out there in a true self-defense situation.

Those who progress through the ranks should hopefully know enough to use the techniques to the point that their opponent(s) stop (no longer a threat) and to just get out (like you mentioned in #1). It does give value to the possibility of mass attacks (when opponents may take turns fighting with the intention of wearing you out to defeat you).

Do not view these long brown/black belt techniques with purely a self defense purpose. I do not. They serve several purposes. These techniques also teach motion, concepts, and principles within the "web of knowledge". This goes with your #2 point. I value these techniques with teaching me more about transitional stances, refining the way I move, and the 'what-if" applications. The "what-if" applications lend to spontaneity. Do you have the Infinite Insights book series written by Mr. Ed Parker? If you do not, I recommend that you do.

There is a difference between doing things in a text-book version, and learning enough to the point that motion/principles are understood that adaption is encouraged. We learn to take advantage of height/width/depth space and making these work for us.

- Ceicei

 

[still learning]

Hello, In most Kempo styles......there will always be different levels of your attacks. In this case the destroy methods

Once you have your attacker on the ground is because of your upright techiques have work on breaking down your attacker, and you want to finish them off.

I knew a guy who grew up a very rough place....as years and experiance goes by....he say's they always keeping hitting the other person till they cannot move. WHY? because if can get back up...he's going to kick your butt back, this has happen to them. So they make sure the fight is over. If you cannot move? Chances are you will not be able to fight back.

Does this make sense....to sometimes keeping kicking the head and body?

Only you will need to decide at what level you will need to take it..? ....

NO such thing as a fair fight...better the other guy feels the pain....Aloha

 

[Carol]

In my class, with nearly every technique my instructor points out opportunities for escape. Some opportunities present themselves as quickly as the first strike.

At one point, I remember my instructor saying "If you face an attacker, are you going to do all 27 (or whatever) steps of Dance of Death on him? No! You're going to get to the point where you can run away"

The way I see it is...the techniques are working on our spontaneity. They are giving us different options to pick from if we need it. With a cool head and quick analytical skills, it is up for us to determine the best way of escape. I'm not a very big person, nor have I ever been much of a runner. If I knock my attacker down, I can see myself wanting to ensure that he is down, and not in a position where he can pick himself up and outrun me.

So far, I've learned short 1 and short 2...I can't see myself using those on the street any time soon, unless I stumble on to the set of some Yellow Belt version of The Perfect Weapon. But personally, I still see the value of the techniques.

:idunno: Maybe that doesn't make any sense coming from a beginner like me. But, it's the way I see it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

'cuz every time I watch a scary movie the bad guy makes a comback after the intial battery... Ever see a HulK Hogan match?... Do you know the person isn't packing?... third point of view.:asian:
Sean

 

[Doc]

hi all,

fairly recent (4 years ago) transplant here from tracy to epak. i love and respect both takes on the art and have enjoyed even moreso the perspective gained from studying both. i do have one bone to pick with epak techniques and am curious if anybody out there can help me understand:

a lot of the brown-level techniques end with a several-step process of kicking the bad guy once he's down. examples would include the end of 'the bear and the ram' or 'falcons of force'. this seems to get even longer and (imho) sillier with many of the black belt extensions.

I agree.

here's the trouble i have with these:

1. once the bad guy is down, running is the best defense 99% of the time. why risk the additional contact?

Agreed.

2. if you have to do it, why the long, drawn-out, step-by-step sequence? (i'm thinking specifically of 'the bear and the ram' here). at brown and black belt level, shouldn't we be moving towards more spontanaeity?

Agreed.

3. several of the two-man defenses have us doing this dancing on the grave while we remain bracketed by our opponents. this strikes me as unutterably daft.

Agreed.

i have great respect for epak and am probably missing the point.

Not really.

sadly, the guy who was teaching me epak is no longer available to ask (my current instructor is primarily a tracy guy). anyone out there have any thoughts?

WARNING: POSSIBLE OFFENSIVE RESPONSE. DO NOT READ IF OVERLY SENSITIVE OR EASILY OFFENDED

For the record when the commercial system was initially created, although it was based on simple self defense courses like some now taught on video, it was somewhat more sophisticated and tended to present many more martial options to the students.

Later as the system was intentionally fleshed out to present more and more material as students demanded, the 'cool and 'wow' factor took hold in the selling of the product. 'Kenpo-karate' is more of a product that allows students, (and teachers) to make of it what they will. This is the greatest sells asset it has. Under these 'tailoring' guidelines, no one is ever wrong.

However, instead of perfecting material, it simply adds more to keep practitioners 'interested' and not allow, initially, it’s American Practitioners the chance to get bored. (And move on to yoga, Taiji, handball or something)

All real martial artists know the actual knowledge is in perfecting and understanding the basics. Rather than 'boring' students, it simply gives them a new toy to play with and, unfortunately gives them belts for the process, not the skill or the knowledge. 'Kenpo-Karate' initially 'grades on the curve,' and when you get to the higher end, 'social promotions' kick in followed by 'self promotions.'

To cover this lack of 'skill', (some say over-skill) the philosophy became, "Well if the first move doesn't work, just move on to the second, etc." This is what we call in our teaching, an "Assumption of Failure." Rather than perfecting what you have to assure it's functionality, just move on to something else. The problem with this "Assumption of Failure" is obvious.

Without real skill and understanding, it is easy for a student to be lured into the 'flash,' and 'wow' factor, with no regard for practicality, moral judgment, common sense, or adherence to prevailing laws of jurisdiction. The seducement of the dark side of the force is strong. Most are just ordinary people like you and I, who are suddenly given this 'power.' Demonstrated in the classroom, they learn to rip out eyeballs, smash testacies, and stomp the living crap out someone who would dare put his hand on our shoulder. One must admit, it can be very empowering, 'Luke."

A portion of the techniques are actually based on women's self defense courses taught at private clubs, health spas, universities and colleges across the country. Put in that context, these types of actions are acceptable and 'normal.' In a women's self defense course, the assumption is the attacker is bigger, male, and great bodily harm, and/or sexual assault are the attackers intent. What ever your mom, sister, wife, or girlfriend might do to the attacker would be too good for him, so there is a social acceptance of the philosophy.

However, when that is translated to a systemized martial art form dominated by men, and children, it is wholly out of context. Yet its popular and empowering method is so alluring, rational people loose a sense of why they are studying in the first place. Self-defense is fine but, not the maiming, crippling, and possible death of someone for throwing a punch or putting a hand on your shoulder.

I was around, heard, and watched the creation of the 'excuses' for the extreme mayhem. "Over-skill, "just in case," and "lessons of motion" are only excuses to cover the systems lack of addressing proper basics, and effective and moral execution of its techniques. Only in Kenpo-Karate is higher skill and knowledge represented by more techniques, more mayhem, and more destruction of an attacker. Nevertheless, this is actually understandable. The real knowledge for a different more traditional approach is not present in the system, but can probably be found in some of its instructors, as intended.

Kenpo Karate in the right hands is not the problem. It is what it is, and can function at a high level when taught properly. The problem is the lack of quality teachers. The system breeds and feeds on itself and each generation are, in general, worse than the previous with less and less real martial experience and knowledge. It is the instructors responsibility to put things in context, and impart a sense of moral 'right and wrong' in their teaching. Sadly, most are just teaching what they were taught, badly. Any excuse for all the mayhem, and stomping, and gouging is just that. An excuse to teach all that they know.

Couple that with the need to teach on a level to sustain the 'business' and there may be a recipe there for success, but only in business, not in self defense. And even those not in business are restrained by the vehicle itself and its lack of depth of information.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thank you for that response, Doc. I had been having many thoughts along this line with regards to the Tracy Kenpo I had learned. What you have stated here is very similar to what I have been thinking for a long time.

 

[Hand Sword]

I agree that proper development of the basics is absolutely necessary, and should not be avoided. However, speaking from a self defense point of view, You should never assume, proper basics or not, success. You should always be prepared for a follow up, and willing to grind it out. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Doc]

I agree that proper development of the basics is absolutely necessary, and should not be avoided. However, speaking from a self defense point of view, You should never assume, proper basics or not, success. You should always be prepared for a follow up, and willing to grind it out. Just my humble opinion.

Being prepared to follow up has nothing to do with planning to fail.

 

[Hand Sword]

Really? Then why put in the follow ups? Aren't they there because the thinking was that the "pre" moves might not be good enough? If so, than the "motion" kenpo guys have the right mind set, but, go a little overboard on some of the techniques.

 

[Flying Crane]

Speaking from the perspective of Tracy kenpo, my take on it is that it really became a "More for the sake of more" mentality, rather than making sure the quality of EVERYTHING is top notch. I believe there is a lot there that is good stuff, but it gets buried under a lot of stuff that is either questionable and impractical, including a bajillion follow-ups, or else it is repetitive and so similar to another technique that there was no reason to repackage it and give it a new name and pretend it is something different. Personally, I think if all this extra fluff is stripped away, and the stuff is really looked at with a critical eye and only the stuff that really makes sense is kept, the system can be streamlined tremendously. This saves a lot of needless effort and time, as you can then focus your efforts on the stuff that is worth keeping and not waste time on stuff that makes little sense.

I did this for myself about a year ago, and am currently working on a second round of revisions. At this point, this is really just for myself, but it makes training much less burdensome since I feel I am really focusing on the quality stuff. I just got tired of working on and memorizing techniques that I knew in my heart were stupid and a waste of time.

 

[Doc]

I just got tired of working on and memorizing techniques that I knew in my heart were stupid and a waste of time.

Good for you sir.

 

[MJS]

Really? Then why put in the follow ups? Aren't they there because the thinking was that the "pre" moves might not be good enough? If so, than the "motion" kenpo guys have the right mind set, but, go a little overboard on some of the techniques.

This was always my belief. The extensions were there for the 'what if/even if' phase.

 

[Doc]

This was always my belief. The extensions were there for the 'what if/even if' phase.

Unfortunately, its almost an inside joke. IF the first couple moves don't work because you're a lousy martial artist, you're not likely to get better on the 15th move. Chances are, you've already lost. There may be some reasonble information there to learn, but the mindset much be changed and not rely on the Assumption of Failure to get you through. Train from an Assumption of Success perspective, and let additional material be added to your vocabulary and understanding in the proper perspective. Working on your 100th technique when your Delayed Sword is dysfunction is a joke, but that what is pushed. More material means, more belts, which means student retention and more bucks coming in - and going out. But that type of training requres commitment, personal disciplince, and patience. We all know those are qualities that everyne has right?

 

[MJS]

Unfortunately, its almost an inside joke. IF the first couple moves don't work because you're a lousy martial artist, you're not likely to get better on the 15th move. Chances are, you've already lost. There may be some reasonble information there to learn, but the mindset much be changed and not rely on the Assumption of Failure to get you through. Train from an Assumption of Success perspective, and let additional material be added to your vocabulary and understanding in the proper perspective. Working on your 100th technique when your Delayed Sword is dysfunction is a joke, but that what is pushed. More material means, more belts, which means student retention and more bucks coming in - and going out. But that type of training requres commitment, personal disciplince, and patience. We all know those are qualities that everyne has right?

I see what you're saying Doc. Good thing that certain folks won't be replying to this.

Mike

 

[Ceicei]

Unfortunately, its almost an inside joke. IF the first couple moves don't work because you're a lousy martial artist, you're not likely to get better on the 15th move. Chances are, you've already lost. There may be some reasonble information there to learn, but the mindset much be changed and not rely on the Assumption of Failure to get you through. Train from an Assumption of Success perspective, and let additional material be added to your vocabulary and understanding in the proper perspective. Working on your 100th technique when your Delayed Sword is dysfunction is a joke, but that what is pushed. More material means, more belts, which means student retention and more bucks coming in - and going out. But that type of training requres commitment, personal disciplince, and patience. We all know those are qualities that everyne has right?

Well, I can't argue with you there. You've made several excellent points. I liked best your point regarding "Assumption of Success". Considering what you've written, would a student in a school that basically follows the "Assumption of Failure" be able to develop the "Assumption of Success" attitude in spite of the training method? If so, how?

- Ceicei

 

[Doc]

Well, I can't argue with you there. You've made several excellent points. I liked best your point regarding "Assumption of Success". Considering what you've written, would a student in a school that basically follows the "Assumption of Failure" be able to develop the "Assumption of Success" attitude in spite of the training method? If so, how?
- Ceicei

"... in spite of the training method?" No. There must be a complete adjustment to the philosophy of what you're doing, as well as how you do it. Most commercial kenpo schools are on an unofficial timetable, to get students promoted before they get bored, and collect testing fees. They keep piling on material even though previous information has not been digested, or reasonably functionally consumed. Nothing is more disheartening than to go do a seminar somewhere, have a room full of people, and not a decent neutral bow in the group of black belts. Teachers fault. Most students will do what's necessary if you teach it, and show them it's efficacy relative to their goals. Of course if the goal is a belt, it doesn't matter. No one preaches it more than me, and still occasionally I'll get a couple of guys who fall in love with the belt over the skill and knowledge. It's human nature. You can't give in to it. Come over to the dark side Luke.

 

[Ceicei]

"... in spite of the training method?" No. There must be a complete adjustment to the philosophy of what you're doing, as well as how you do it. Most commercial kenpo schools are on an unofficial timetable, to get students promoted before they get bored, and collect testing fees. They keep piling on material even though previous information has not been digested, or reasonably functionally consumed. Nothing is more disheartening than to go do a seminar somewhere, have a room full of people, and not a decent neutral bow in the group of black belts. Teachers fault. Most students will do what's necessary if you teach it, and show them it's efficacy relative to their goals. Of course if the goal is a belt, it doesn't matter. No one preaches it more than me, and still occasionally I'll get a couple of guys who fall in love with the belt over the skill and knowledge. It's human nature. You can't give in to it. Come over to the dark side Luke.

Well, how would one develop the "Assumption of Success" philosophy then? I take it that this is possible.

- Ceicei

 

[IWishToLearn]

Have Dr. Chapel smack you around a few times with the aforementioned heelpalms while pointing out structural instabilities and offering corrections where necessary?

>

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Well, how would one develop the "Assumption of Success" philosophy then? I take it that this is possible.

- Ceicei

Easiest was I can think is to solidify your basics. Sounds easy, but there is a lot to it. Take some time to hyper-inspect your execution, and be sure you are in accord with a skilled referent (i.e., what are the weight distributions in your forward, neutral, or reverse bows? How many anatomical units apart should your knees be in a wide kneel? What are the relational feet placements in your twist stance, and are you breaking over your own pelvic line by goping too far moving into one?). How much, how far, etc., for many of these things are in available kenpo written and video resources, and while it may not be optimal, I can assure you that taking the time to attend to the minutae will pay off in a more solid kenpo representation.

Yes, the details matter that much. And when you have someone who will take the time to apply the know-how to nudge you out of an unstable stance that was off by only 10% or so, that graphically illustrates the importance of the little things.

Best Regards,

D.