Counter to throw

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Dec 20, 2020.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    In wrestling, when a counter works on you, sometime it's your fault because you allow your opponent's hand to control a certain part of your body. If you spend some effort not to allow such things to happen, your opponent will have less chance to counter your throw.

    When you apply a throw, if you can control your opponent's leading arm, he will only have one free arm left to counter you. But if you can control both of his arms, most of his counters won't work.

    In the following clip, he allows his opponent's left arm to warp around his waist. He should release his right hand hold, over hook his opponent's left arm, and put pressure on that elbow joint instead.

    IMO, you should spend a certain amount of effort not to let your opponent to control any effective contact point on you (such as the waist wrap in the following example). This may reduce your offense ability. But it's a worthwhile trade off.

    In the striking art, offense may be the best defense. But in the wrestling art, to allow your opponent to have free arm/arms is not a good idea.

    Your thought?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
  2. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    dup, deleted.
     
  3. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed. If you have the chance before the throw, the best response there would be to push down on the elbow or bicep, while turning to back up and reset a bit. Maybe go for a right arm underhook if the push down is successful enough.

    The idea behind the throw/pushdown in the clip would probably be that you already did something to outmaneuver the other person, and also have them off balance (I can't see that working without them being off balance). So if you as the throwee there are in randori and got in that position, you already messed up somehow...but if you recognize what they're doing and they're slow, you can absolutely counter it.

    Personally, at that point I'd probably be going for what would basically be a valley drop. The end position wouldn't be as good but there's a lot less risk of the person escaping and I wouldn't need to fully get that side/back position + off balancing for the throw.
     
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You would get that position from the underhook?

    So therefore the defence is just never get underhooked?
     
  5. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    you could try not bending the knees, that would make it considerably more difficult that n example given , you could also move your foot out in the direction of the throw and push back or rotate counter to the throw or just smack him in the nose with that elbow that is being held in an odd postion for no obvious reason
     
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    By using underhook, you lift up your opponent's left shoulder. His left arm can't wrap around your waist.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Your opponent's waist wrapping arm gives you an excellent chance to crack his elbow joint if you know how to take advantage on it.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Every situation I can think of where you control both arms, there's a compromise that opens up other counters. The most obvious is to deny the capture of both arms.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You can

    - ignore your opponent's arms (such as 2 Judo guys just dance around).
    - spend the majority amount effort to deal with your opponent's arms (such as 2 wrestlers play the grip fight).

    Which approach is better?

    I prefer to spend 80% of my effort to control my opponent's arms.
     
  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If the guy with blue puts his right hand on his opponent's right knee, the result can be much better.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
  11. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    If that is really all the person has for control of your body why could you not just spin out counter-clockwise? That would be an out fighters thinking.

    Could you under hook the left shoulder or head lock?
     
  12. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Spin out is one solution. This is why in wrestling, you want to train 1, 2, 3, 2, 1 footwork. If your opponent has control over your body, you want to spin out (reverse your footwork) first and re-enter again.

    It may be to slow to underhook his left shoulder since his left arm is already below your right arm, but overhook his left elbow joint is the best approach.

    You may use right arm to head lock your opponent, but his left arm is still free on your waist.

    Here is an example of

    - Overhook the left arm (this can put pressure on his elbow joint).
    - Spring back his left leg (this will force him to be in bow-arrow stance that's harder to drag you back down),
    - Shin bite on his right leg (put pressure on his right knee joint).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Judo players don't actually ignore arms. I'm not sure where you get that.
     
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  14. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    judo as ut has developed, has the tendancy to have the arms in one very predictable place, so all though it would be wrong to say that the arms ate ignored, its the arms which are going to land you on yoyr back, your rrasonbly safe to ignore the propect that they may do something else with them, like punch you on the nose
     
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  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The rules limit grip fighting, if I recall correcly, so yeah, they tend to only pay attention to them in specific ways. I can't recall if the rules about grip fighting were the same when I was training, or if they've changed significantly. My memory sucks.
     
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  16. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    That's how I understand it. You can't grip below the belt I believe, and certain other grips are banned. Which is why so many in Bjj go to wrestling over Judo, because the rule limitations in Judo require a complete reorientation of your training, whereas translating wrestling to Bjj is far easier.
     
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  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well im older than you and they were when i was young, of course its possible to mix judo up a bit, but then it tends towarss being jujitsu
     
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  18. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    So in this video, from what I remember when wrestling in college you are very unlikely to be in that position. If you were the hips would be sucked up so tight it would be hard to make that right leg step as shown.
    But you were going to try it that way would you not want to Under hook the arm and step through like that?
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    To start your throw with under hook is always better because you do have 100% control over your opponent's left arm.

    You can also guide your opponent's left arm into your right arm. This way, his left arm won't be able to wrap around your waist.

    My point is, the more effort that you may spend on dealing with your opponent's left arm, the less chance that his left arm can wrap around your waist.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    In another Judo forum, when I discussed this subject with a Judo instructor, he asked me, "Are you trying to train Olympic Judo competitors?" In his opinion, Judo guys only train grip fight during very high level.

    Do you know any Judo grip breaking (or grip fight) video available online?123
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020

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