Counter to throw

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Dec 20, 2020.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,535
    Likes Received:
    7,487
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I think there's also something about too much defense/avoidance in the rules. I'm sure that description is entirely acurate and precise. :D
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,535
    Likes Received:
    7,487
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I don't have any saved links, but I have seen grip fighting videos from Judoka. They're easier to find from BJJ folks, but the flavor is usually different. I'd say what I found from BJJ folks was more comprehensive.
     
  3. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    1,098
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Not accurate.

    Agreed.

    A misstatement of the facts. In Shiai you can take any above-the-waist grip you wish but if it is considered a non-standard grip you have 3 seconds to initiate an attack.
    Judo rules - Wikipedia

    It is more that the rules encourage attacking and action. 3-5 seconds for a non-standard grip just isn't a ton of time to fart around with grip-fighting. Just get on with the throw.

    My club currently has a BJJ national champion training with us. BJJ black belt and Shodan in Judo (should be Nidan by now, truly). He likes to use Judo in BJJ comps. The strategy works well and it tends to throw his opponents off their game.

    Stalling, false attacks, and "defensive" only postures are prohibited and can earn you a shido (penalty) in competition. That said, schools which branch out from competition don't have any issues with feints and "defensive postures." This is common in Judo clubs which teach "judo for self defense," "old style judo" or have an instructor double ranked in something like Danzan.
    Judo rules - Wikipedia

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,335
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    above the waist is a predictable place.
    as in, i bet he will place his arms somewhere between my waist and my neck, yes, how predictable
     
  5. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    1,098
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    I bet he'll place his hands somewhere on my body or clothing. How predictable. :rolleyes:

    You over-stated your case and are now trying to justify it. How predictable.

    The fact is that even in Shiai judo players are free to grab anywhere above legs with a time limit for "non-standard" grips and are free to grab anywhere in randori provided it's sanctioned by the dojo or by agreement of the players.

    But you'll believe whatever you want and will undoubtedly continue to try to argue this foolishness. So go ahead. Here, use this space:_______________
     
  6. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,335
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    the torso is one place, it even has a place name, the upper torso just makes it even more predictable
     
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    9,980
    Likes Received:
    2,469
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    You don't need to have a grips in order to start your throw. The wrestling single leg and double legs don't start with any grips.

    I like those techniques that don't require grips. It's much easier to integrate into the striking art.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2020
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    19,898
    Likes Received:
    5,083
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Our school frowns on that sort of thing in training because it wastes a lot of time that can be better spent learning to wrestle.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,535
    Likes Received:
    7,487
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    A predictable area, perhaps. There are still several places available.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,535
    Likes Received:
    7,487
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Europe also has a place name.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,535
    Likes Received:
    7,487
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Yeah, sometimes you just need to set up a worst-case scenario so you can get some practice in on specific things.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,335
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    it does, thats because its one place, sub devided into more specific regions on an abstact political basis, counties do not exist outside of politics ie the minds of men, europe however does, (both politicaly and )geographically
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,535
    Likes Received:
    7,487
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    So, you'd consider it easy to predict where someone would be at a given time if you were told they were somewhere in Europe?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,335
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    id find it easy to predict they wernt in africa

    which in this tortued analogy your developing, would be the legs or the north pole that would be the head
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,535
    Likes Received:
    7,487
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Okay. So you don't have to defend Africa. But you don't really know where that person is, do you? That's Kirk's point. Yes, Judo rules mean there are fewer places to defend, but it doesn't make the hand position entirely predictable, unless you stretch the concept to something like "I can predict they wernt in africa".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,335
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    i know exaxtly where they are, they are in europe, which is an exact location

    the body doesnt have an equivelent of France, as france doesnt exist geographicaly, it would like inventing a body location that doesnt exist anatomically , like the minds eye or a third arm
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,535
    Likes Received:
    7,487
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Um, the arm (Netherlands?) is above the waist. As is the lapel (Germany?), the wrist (UK?), etc. There are, in fact, multiple locations "above the waist". Unless your torso is roughly hand-sized, then I'd concede the point.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,335
    Likes Received:
    1,424
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    but non of those places exist, they are not phyical location, just political entities

    you could narrow it down by geoghacal features, like mountains.

    but those would still be in europe, and would be the same as say a low grip or a high grip,or a wide grip v a norrow grip but still very predictable, , as there are only so many variations like there ate only so many moubtains in europe,and as they are not attacking Antarctica
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    6,031
    Likes Received:
    1,776
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Southeast U.S.
    Most folks know I am more of an up fighter. But I do have some wrestling experience.
    When you say "fewer places to defend" are you talking about leverage points or are there specific places that are off limits in Judo competition?
     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    19,898
    Likes Received:
    5,083
    Trophy Points:
    308
    You can't do throws like double legs.123
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page