Continual assessment?

[satans.barber]

I was talking to one of the guys at the club the other day and he was telling me about his last school. Apparantly, they never had gradings, but were continually assessed, so once the instructor noted that a student had achieved a certain level, he was awarded a belt (or a sash in this case as I think it was a kung fu school).

He was extolling the virtues of this, telling me how it took away all the pressure of gradings, and it was also a nice surprise when students got new belts. He also claimed that it made people train more seriously and with greater commitment.

I thought it sounded like a good idea, but, I don't think it would work in kenpo (especially people who learn the full EPAK curriculum) since it would be difficult to seperate out the techniques into any kind of order. The belt system, although frowned upon by some (hello Gou ) does provide a nice way of breaking down the material into managable chapters.

Any thoughts on continual assesment in kenpo, or in general?

Ian.

 

[tonbo]

I think that this is actually pretty common, if you think about it.....however, some schools award their belts "en masse" during actual "belt tests".

This is pretty much how our school does it. Students are *always* being tested, whether they know it or not. What happens during "tab evaluations" is just to give them a measurable goal to shoot for (i.e., to work hard to get prepared to test) and also to see how they handle pressure.

"Belt tests" are actually more ceremonial than determinative. Those who are invited to the "test" are, in the minds of the testors, already set to get their belts--unless they REALLY screw up in the test (i.e., just stand there, show disrespect or bad attitude, etc.).

I like the way this works out. You don't really catch on to the whole thing until you are pretty advanced, and by then, you have already resigned yourself to the fact that the instructors know how you are performing anyway, and you are used to being "tested" pretty much each class period.

I also like the fact that, after months to years of training at one level, advancement doesn't come due to one day's performance: it is based on continuous performance and evaluation. As an instructor, I get to see both the good and bad days of a student, progressions and regressions, and monitor the attitudes. When I recommend a student for advancement, it is based on a long-term study, not just one lucky day.

Just my 2 cents' worth....Ramble mode off......

Peace--

 

[satans.barber]

That's true, but only if the person grading you is the person who normal teaches you...

The guy who grades us lives on the South coast, he travels up and asseses us on one day's performance, since he only really sees us at gradings (and the odd other day when he comes up to take a class, maybe every 2 months).

Although he came up to grade us on Sunday (well, not me personally) and he didn't pass a single Junior or Senior, claiming the standard had dropped.
He also claimed that the standard in Wales was excellent. Strange then that at the last grading 3 months ago, the standard in Wales was reputedly poor and out standard was very good. He likes to bundle people into groups and rarely views people as individuals (in my experience). Needless to say, people aren't happy, since he's either grading according to his mood on a particular day, or else he's moved the goal posts and not told anyone.

Grading isn't cheap, so all the people that laid out money and were quite obviously adequate for their belts (and then some) are not all happy.

Also, he wwas saying things like "some of you are not doing that correctly", but not saying who, so people who were doing it right were beggining to have needless doubt in themselves and becoming really nervous.

Anyway, we'll see what develops on this front! He's coming back in 6 weeks to look at us, if he sees a "vast improvement" then he'll confirm passes, if he doesn't he'll confirm fails (then we can have fun counting the people who walk out of the door to a school with some consistency).

Ian.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by tonbo
Students are *always* being tested, whether they know it or not. What happens during "tab or Belt evaluations" is just to give them a measurable goal to shoot for (i.e., to work hard to get prepared to test) and also to see how they handle pressure.

I also like the fact that, after months to years of training at one level,

"advancement doesn't come due to one day's performance",

it is based on continuous performance and evaluation. As an instructor, I get to see both the good and bad days of a student, progressions and regressions, and monitor the attitudes. When I recommend a student for advancement, it is based on a long-term study, not just one lucky day.

We think alike. WELL SAID!!
:asian:

 

[Seig]

When I first started training my students, I told them that as long as I was inviting them to test that it was pretty much a formality and a chance for them to show off. I also told them that if I recommended that they did not test, then odds were, they were not going to change my mind. I had one aboout 9 months ago, test against my advice, I told him in advance that in my mind he had already failed the test. The night of the test, he participated, to "help out" with no intention of even being graded. That night he gave to most impressive display i had ever seen form him. He was promoted. Since then I have had a few test that I felt were not ready, and I told them so. They are still wearing their old belts. I work with my students day in and day out, I know what they can do and always push them to reach further.....Every day is an assesment.

 

[tonbo]

Yeah, sounds like we do think alike......sometimes. The rest of the time, you are way up there above me. I'm still down here, trying to figure out how to tie my belt....

I would add something in to this discussion about those that are testing the students, based on this comment:

That's true, but only if the person grading you is the person who normal teaches you...

I have a bit of a problem with someone testing students that he/she hasn't personally taught.

They may be high rank and know techniques real well--the way that those techniques were taught to *them*. However, what they *don't* know is the personalities of the students, their strengths and weaknesses, what progressions they have made from their own starting point, and so on. In short, an "outside" evaluator doesn't KNOW the students.

Seig had a good story there, about the student he wasn't going to pass. That kind of thing happens. However, someone who has not seen where a student started from and where they are now really doesn't know how qualified that student is. Just my personal experience and belief, for what it's worth.

The other thing is this: when I help out at belt tests, it is mainly to be an evaluator. Our head instructor wants us to look at the way the students move, what they do well and what they need help on as a whole. We are then to compare notes with the other instructors and take those notes to heart when teaching classes--it shows the things we are not stressing enough. The point to all this is that if students aren't doing the moves right, is it the fault of the student who learned it that way, or the teacher who taught it that way?

Sometimes, students don't learn what they should, and don't get corrected. That is true. Sometimes, students think they know better than anyone else and stay stubborn. That is also true. However, if a student *learns* a technique "incorrectly" from their instructor, but does it well, shouldn't they pass a test anyway? It would then be up to the instructor to correct *their* mistakes.......and then make sure that the student was "evolved"....

Ah, well. That's a whole 'nuther discussion, I'm sure......and I am rambling again.....

Peace--

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by satans.barber

The guy who grades us lives on the South coast, he travels up and asseses us on one day's performance, since he only really sees us at gradings (and the odd other day when he comes up to take a class, maybe every 2 months).

Ian ... who teaches you? What rank is he/she?

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by tonbo

I have a bit of a problem with someone testing students that he/she hasn't personally taught.

They may be high rank and know techniques real well--the way that those techniques were taught to *them*. However, what they *don't* know is the personalities of the students, their strengths and weaknesses, what progressions they have made from their own starting point, and so on. In short, an "outside" evaluator doesn't KNOW the students.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you, but there's not a lot I can do about it! The guy who grades us heads the style, he's in charge, so we have to abide by his rules.

Our sensei is far more qualified to grade us, since he knows us all personally and sees us week in week out, but he is, essentially, answerably to the people above him like anyone else, which in this case is Phil.

Ian.

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Kirk



Ian ... who teaches you? What rank is he/she?

Glen Coolican, 2nd Dan. We're graded by Phil Cawood, 7th Dan.

Also, why did I just move from a Martial Talk orange belt to a green belt, what happened to purple ans blue!? Oh well, looks more impressive!

Ian.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by tonbo
I have a bit of a problem with someone testing students that he/she hasn't personally taught.

I also agree here. When traveling around with Mr. Parker he also took this attitude. He was able to evaluate the basic movements and knowledge of the student but not the progress of that particular student since he didn't know what they looked like from the beginning.

Many students make measurable progress and deserve a boost but if you have not been with them you will not see this...... so it makes it difficult some times to completely evaluate the individual other than on obvious skills demonstrated.

A goal to shoot for is "Measurable Progress in Reasonable Time". This also is in conjunction with the guidelines set forth with a well structured curriculum that teaches the entire system and methods of training that develop excellent personal skills.

:asian: