Close the opening

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When you throw a punch, you will create some opening. Your opponent will punch through that opening,

    In the following clip, A throws a left hook. B uses a right hook to punch through the opening that A has just created.

    [​IMG]

    If A can change his left hook into a back fist as shown in the following clip, A can close the opening that he has just created. B's right hook will be blocked by A's left back fist.

    It's always a good idea to "close the opening that you have just created" when you miss your punch. In order to do that, you have to think ahead.

    Your thought?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The clip is a bad example. A opens his hands with the plan of grabbing the guard. Which in theory was his effort to stop that right hand from firing. It would seem to me that he was trying to cover the opening that he created with the kick. In the picture below you can see his hand is open. There were some other issues in play here. I'm thinking hand he move forward and actually threw a hook then Cung Le would have been hit by his hook. So in this example, the concept of covering you opening has exceptions.
    upload_2021-1-14_23-5-40.png

    Generally it's always a good idea to "close" or "move" the opening that you create. I'm able to move my openings by changing my stance height or by cutting angle. I can close openings with my arms or my leg.

    When I punch I try to cover certain areas where the punch leaves me open in a bad way. Other times I leave myself open because that's where I need the person to punch so I can exploit the my opponent's opening that will be there.

    In terms of missing a punch. I don't punch all the way through my target. I only punch within a needed range, that way if I miss my punching arm is already in the way covering or near the opening that the punch creates. Punch beyond your target and it can do more harm than good when you miss.

    I think Long Fist systems are the exception to with a lot of the long punches, they understand the opening is there, but they tend to make it a "Fake Opening" The opening is usually large enough to make your opponent mentally abandon their original plan in an effort to try to capitalize on the big opening that they see. By the time they change their mind then it's too late. This is what I see in the second clip. The downward strike creates a big opening that will get the attention of your opponent. The gap invites the punch to the head. So in reality the combination leads the opponent into the next technique. This is good, because you don't have to guess where the person is going to strike, as the combination leads the opponent to the next technique. This is better than trying to guess what comes next.

    But in general it's better to cover the opening. Or at the minimum understand where your openings are.
     
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  3. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Use a fake opening to take advantage on your opponent's attack is a good strategy.
     
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  4. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    Good technique is that you always maintain control of your weapons. You should always be in one of three states:
    • Chambered
    • Guarded
    • Striking
    Your limbs should never be out of your control. In this clip, he makes three major mistakes:
    1. He allows his punch to overswing, which makes it take longer to return to a ready position. He should have arrested the momentum sooner.
    2. He swings down, so his punch takes his hand even further away from his guard.
    3. He turns his head along with the punch. He's not even watching at that point.
    Following up with a backfist or a block isn't a bad idea. But the problem here is not that he didn't close the opening. It's that the opening was so big in the first place.
     
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  5. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    No. I don't think it works like that.

    It is more like if you throw from directly in front of a guy and stay there. Their return shot will hit you in the head.

    Which is a very common dynamic in fighting.

    Really good fighters will never stay in that position.

     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
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  6. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    This is exactly why I was criticizing your strategy in the other thread. This "fake opening" that you see...the opponent did throw a punch in the opening and did connect, which lead to a KO.

    And that's assuming that your opponent does abandon his strategy. His strategy may have been to hit there, in which case he's already ahead of you. There may be other openings you're not focusing on (a kick just below the ribs would have been a really good shot, here, too). That opening may be taken advantage of with a variety of techniques; if you're expecting a straight punch, and instead it's an uppercut or a roundhouse kick, then it's going to take longer to spring your trap.

    Baiting by leaving an opening is a gamble. It might have a high success rate on those with less experience and less speed. It becomes a bigger and bigger gamble the more skilled your opponent is. And if your opponent is inexperienced enough that the trap would work, then just about anything would work. If your opponent is "changing his mind," then they probably don't have enough experience. At a high level, you should be reacting based on what your opponent does. Your techniques should be automatic. You shouldn't be taking the time to think during a fight. If you do, you're too slow. By the time you think "why is he leaving his jaw open?" you should have already hit it.
     
  7. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    im agreeing with your last paragraph, people general dont have a stratergy, beyond maintain distance and counter punch or close distance and bang, every thing else is opportunist and reactive and needs to be done or not done with out concious thought or by the time your brain has processed it, the opportunity is gone
     
  8. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    The strategy is in your training. You train the techniques you want to use, you drill against an opponent using techniques you expect to go up against. You use those training and drilling sessions to map out your strategy and find what works, and then drill it until it's automatic. At higher levels, this is also where you watch tape of your opponent and try and figure out their strategy, so you can counter it.
     
  9. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    and he just has to do something else having watched your tapes and youve wasted weeks/ months

    im mindful of last years fight betwen dw and tf where tf diecided to close and punch instead of jab and move and dw didnt last the fight, and thats at the simple level of stratergy that i said existed

    you can say, the guy has a mean left hook, try not to get hit by it or he hangs his chin out, punch it, but that not really strategy so much as pointing out the obvious
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  10. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Cung Le didn't throw a punch into a "fake opening". He made that opening by making his opponent fall upon emptiness. Not sure what you are looking at. But here's what I'm seeing.

    Cung Le's opponent reaches to pull or control Cung Le's guard after kicking. At this point the opponent is covered.
    Cung Le see the attempted grab and removes it in a way that lets him counter as a hook.
    Cung Le's opponent misses the guard because Cung Le moved it. As a result the attempted grab by the opponent was over extended.
    Cung Le took advantage of the over extension, over extending created the opening, which was a real opening and not a fake opening.

    The term "fake opening" describes when someone looks like they are open but really aren't, they aren't real opening. Instead they are lures used to trick you into attacking a certain area so that your attack can be countered. Long Fist techniques create such opening, where you think you can get in but in reality it's not a real opening that can be exploited.
     
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    You can't take advantage of a fake opening because it's not a real opening. The only thing you can do is avoid it. So if you think you can attack a fake opening then you have already fallen for the lure. Even professional fighters avoid fake openings when they see one. If you see a fake opening then you avoid it or attack somewhere else.

    The thing with fake openings is that you aren't "Expecting" you are "luring". You are driving attacks to where you want to be attacked. When you "Expect" you are just guessing.where the opponent will hit, which is not a good strategy. Using fake openings are like fishing. You can cast your line and just let your bait sit there and expect that something will swim by and bite. Or you can cast your line and lure the fish by attracting attention to something that looks like food but actually hides the hooks.

    Is luring 100% of course not, but the reliability of it is a very high percentage which is why you see evidence of it in almost every type of competition even non fighting ones.
     
  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Long fist techniques don't work like this. The techniques present "fake openings" and because of that it's not a gamble. Any real opening is covered up by using another technique .

    This is an example of covering up an opening that actually exists. In technique used here, the Long fist technique has an opening at the end of the 2 punches that threw. The system understand this and adds a kick to close that opening. If I do not do the kick then I will have a real opening. If I use the kick then the opening will be closed. You can see that I have a real opening by looking at the my guard. My right guard doesn't even exist at this point.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    He's not swinging down. He's actually trying to pull Cung Le's guard. The picture below shows his hand opening you can see his fingers are extended as he reaches for the guard.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The moment that his left arm downward parry miss the contact, the moment that he should change his downward parry (or wrist grab) into an arm wrap (back fist, outward block, or comb hair).

    [​IMG]

    Comb hair.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    I don't know these people, nor did I see any more of this fight than is in the gif. I was trusting that @Kung Fu Wang made an accurate assessment that the person on the right is throwing a punch, and then left the opening. That was my mistake.

    However, the same applies: He turns his head, he overswings, and his other hand is down. All of that is still true.

    Um...you're changing the word, but the effect is the same. You're "luring" a hit to come where you left the opening, or you're "expecting" a hit to come where you left the opening. That attack you're "luring" might not come from where you're watching, or it might not hit the space you leave open. If your opponent takes the time to notice the opening and doesn't punish you, then they aren't experienced enough you need to leave that opening in the first place.

    Except, your head isn't open. Your head is back, out of range. Even if he were to lean in, you're covering your chin with your hand.

    Also...and hear my out...you can do the punches in such a way that you're not leaving yourself open! Did you know that when you punch with the left hand, the right hand can stay in the guard position? And when you punch with the right hand, the left hand can return the guard position? And guess what! You can do a kick as a follow-up in that case, too!

    Oh, and because the guard position doubles as a chamber, your strikes will be faster and stronger from there than wildly swinging haymakers. You'll also be better balanced when you go to kick than if your arms are wide, or across your body as they are here.

    I think it also helps that your opponent is crossing his arms and leaning into the kick.
     
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    It's just a circular arm movement. To me, there is no difference among a

    - hook punch,
    - circular punch,
    - hay-maker,
    - downward parry, or
    - wrist grab.

    It also makes no difference whether the hand shape is a

    - fist,
    - ridge hand,
    - palm, or
    - claw.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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  18. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You guys are going way too complicated on this. If you leave/draw an opening, that means you've got a plan to react to it. Which means you won't have to think if they fall for it. Which means you're more likely to succeed. Just make sure they're not way faster or trickier than you, or it'll backfire.
     
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  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When he moves in under his opponent's left hook, without using right hand to push away his opponent's left elbow, did he just walk into his opponent's reverse head lock (guillotine)?
     
  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    There are different level of MA training:

    1. You make a mistake, but you don't even notice it.
    2. You make a mistake, you know your mistake, and you try to fix it.
    3. You intentional make a mistake, draw your opponent in, and take advantage on it.

    To "seal the gap (close the opening)" is a very important MA concept.123
     
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