Circling Destruction

[Seabrook]

Here's another technique that I see a lot of variability in instruction methods. It's one of my favorites in EPAK.

I see a lot of people do the chop to the back of the neck while settling in a cat stance (as opposed to being in a neutral bow) as you continue to move up the circle. Very difficult to get a lot of power begind the chop if you're in a cat stance in my opinion.

Any thoughts/ideas for this technique?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[pete]

how 'bout a left rear twist after the left heel palm to get behind him, then as you unwind from the twist, pull the chin with your left hand which remained there from the heel palm as you chop the opened up right side of his neck with your right hand. so i guess i'm still in the n-bow while delivering the strike.

i think i do the cat transition as i reach around to hook his eye with my right hand setting up the scoop kick...

pete

 

[MisterMike]

I learned it hitting from the neutral bow as well (after unwinding from the rotating twist).

It's fun to play with this one and Reversing Mace, Gripping Talon, Repeating Mace. Anything for a left where you can change up and go into any of the above.

 

[TwistofFat]

I have always been taught to "settle with your strike" and use this strike as a major since the back knuckle/heel palm may or may not cause the fight to end (from a neutral bow or forward bow based on position of bad guy).

In addtion, I bend this poor SOB backwards via the voilent left heel palm in a small circle (just enough so he doesn't fall yet...) and knock his block off (or downward as the case maybe), then go to a cat if completing the technique.
If he is still standing, I choke him with a guillotine and use him a shield (or show the book technique ...scoop, eye hook, etc, then choke him, use him a shield).

Great technique from a right jab, left cross.

Regards - Glenn.

 

[parkerkarate]

Marriage of Gravity, my friend. As you settle into your cat stance you chop to either the kneck or there is another place, it is not exactly but it is not the kneck. I forget what it is called. But any ways Marriage of Gravity will give you more than enough power.

 

[Seabrook]

Marriage of Gravity, my friend. As you settle into your cat stance you chop to either the kneck or there is another place, it is not exactly but it is not the kneck. I forget what it is called. But any ways Marriage of Gravity will give you more than enough power.

I know about marriage of gravity - the question is: can you get the same or more power using MOG while dropping into a cat, or is better to do the chop while in a neutral bow? I know a lot of people who would argue the latter.

 

[dubljay]

One thing I have noticed about this technique as well as Shield and Sword, is that the chop to the neck is often done ineffectively. This has nothing to do with what stance you are in; simple fact is that I have seen many people attempt to deliver a chop the neck coming from their midsection. To get the neck you have to load high for the chop otherwise the shoulder and back take most of the force... which is quite ineffective for a chop.

 

[pete]

the power comes from rotational force, and the target of the right side of the neck comes from the pull back of the chin with your right hand as your strike with your left... you don't really have to load high if your pulling him down and in. there's a lot of things going on at once!

pete

 

[parkerkarate]

The "cranking" of the kneck occurs after the chop. Just like in Five Swords you cock that right hand high for two rasons: 1) check his left arm if he throws a punch and 2) to use marriage of gravity again to gain momentum and power on your last chop. To either the back of his neck if you learned to crane him down or to his collar bone if you learned to just settle back into a right neutral bow. So for Circling Distruction, yes settleing into a cat stance will give you alot of power and momentum coming down, and yes on the other hand if you would rather settle into a neutral bow and chop you will also have alot of momentum and power, rotating tourque. Than go into your cat stance for the crane, that is up to you.

 

[parkerkarate]

Even with Sheild In Sword, which has a really cool extension, you cock the right hand high the rotation of your body and hand will give you the power once again. If you hit when you settle any strike is devistating. Just don't stay there too long, LOL.

 

[pete]

The "cranking" of the kneck occurs after the chop.

what do you do with your left hand after the palm heel to the jaw?

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Delivering the chop from the cat stance places the bulk of the weight distribution to the rear or left leg, making the right chop to the neck less powerful. (and i need all the power i can get!) I was taught to heel palm with the left, rotating twist and as you unwind and settle into the neutral to deliver the chop to the neck for a major strike. The cat is taken then as you hook the eye and prepare for the scoop kick, etc. Just my take on a great technique displaying great basics.

Salute,

Donna :ultracool

One more thing - I like pete's "activated" movement with the left hand crank of the chin before the chop! Sounds oooooo so nasty!!!!!!

 

[parkerkarate]

Wow a rotating twist. That is new and cool. But I do not see how delivering the chop from the cat stance places the bulk of the weight distribution to the rear or left leg makes the right chop to the neck less powerful. I was also taught to go from a foward bow when you are doing the left heel-palm into a neutral bow chopping and than catting. That would have the same power as a rotating twist stance. You can do it either way the second way as I look at it now is better. I always have a tendency to rush when I am thinking about some techniques. But anyways try moving up the circle while heel-palming, take a step up towards 12 with your right foot and swing your left foot around and plant. You should land in a forward bow with you right foot in front facing 9 o'clock. Have your right hand high checking by the right side of your face. Than rotate into a neutral bow and chop. See how that suites you.

 

[Kenpo Mama]

. But I do not see how delivering the chop from the cat stance places the bulk of the weight distribution to the rear or left leg makes the right chop to the neck less powerful.

A cat stance is a transitional stance, and the weight distribution onto the rear leg is 90%. Now in my thinking (and please feel free to discuss) why would i want to deliver a major strike like the chop to the neck, when my weight is shifted in the opposite direction. I would want my weight to be settled into a NB at 50-50 to generate more power from the hips for this strike. Now granted some of you really strong folks could get the strike off using your shoulder, but lil' (haha) old me - i just love to use my core.

Peace!

Donna :asian:

 

[pete]

whoa gang, too many absolutes here...

the last sword in five swords (extension?) is delivered while shifting your weight back into a revere bow, and the pop to the elbow in snaking talon is executed when settling back into a transitional cat... but the key again here is what is the other side doing? in my opinion, its as much about rotational force and counterbalance as it is about opening up targets.

at that point in five swords you've just given him a left heel palm/claw to the face, so you would be pulling his face in towards you as you go into a reverse bow and deliver the right outward chop.

in snaking talon, you've already 'snaked' and now would be pulling his right wrist in towards you as you settle into a cat and deliver the right palm heel out to the elbow.

so back to circling destruction, what are you doing with that left hand after the heel palm to the jaw?

pete

 

[parkerkarate]

To answer Pete after you deliver your heel-palm, you should flip you hand to do a horizontal check across both shoulder blades. So your whole left arm should cover both shoulder blades. Than you come back to a neutral bow and deliver your right chop while still checking.

 

[parkerkarate]

Kenpo Mama, I was wong about that cat stance and I stand corrected by both you and Pete. I was rushing in my visualiztion of the technique. You come back from a foward bow into a neutral bow and deliver you chop. Than you hook under his chin or eyes and while going into your cat stance.

 

[Kenpo Mama]

whoa gang, too many absolutes here...

the last sword in five swords (extension?) is delivered while shifting your weight back into a revere bow, and the pop to the elbow in snaking talon is executed when settling back into a transitional cat... but the key again here is what is the other side doing? in my opinion, its as much about rotational force and counterbalance as it is about opening up targets.

at that point in five swords you've just given him a left heel palm/claw to the face, so you would be pulling his face in towards you as you go into a reverse bow and deliver the right outward chop.

in snaking talon, you've already 'snaked' and now would be pulling his right wrist in towards you as you settle into a cat and deliver the right palm heel out to the elbow.

so back to circling destruction, what are you doing with that left hand after the heel palm to the jaw?

pete

So pete, two very excellent examples - however i would have to say with five swords that the difference in the application is - (and only as i see it) that you are pulling the attacker's face toward you after the inward claw - drawing them closer to the right outward handsword as you move into the reverse bow to allow the distance for the back kick. Now even a reverse bow has a weight distribution of 60-40 (better than the 90-10) of the cat. And basically the same with Snaking Talon as you draw the attacker's arm past the hip after striking the "elbow" so now basically his body is being pulled to my "more grounded" leg.

If i understand where you are going with this - i think it is with the "left hand" specifically in circling destruction - before the chop. You are delivering the heel palm and from that heel palm torquing the neck toward you (personally i check the shoulder after the heel palm and haven't tried the neck torque, but sounds great!), crossing back with the left and unwinding with the chop, then hooking with the cat, preparing for the kick. I see - rotational force and counterbalance !!!

Thanks for the discussion! Now onto the extension of flashing mace for me.

D:ultracool

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Kenpo Mama, I was wong about that cat stance and I stand corrected by both you and Pete. I was rushing in my visualiztion of the technique. You come back from a foward bow into a neutral bow and deliver you chop. Than you hook under his chin or eyes and while going into your cat stance.

Hey Parkerkarate, i do that all the time! Just don't rush the actual technique - ya' know "speed kills"! Thanks for the discussion of one of my favorite techs!

D:ultracool

 

[parkerkarate]

Yea I know. But if you want to talk about any other techniques I have no problem with it.