Chi Nas/Qinna instructionals!!

[clfsean]

Unless your speaking Chinese... If I use Tagalog terminology with my Chinese speaking teacher, he's not going to know what the hell I'm talking about When I'm talking to a mixed group of martial artists who speak English, I'm going to use English terminology. If I'm talking to mainly CMA people, I'm going to use a combination most likely.

Huh?? Too many languages there...

I keep it simple & go just for Cantonese & English.

But I understand what you're saying.

As for principles and training methods... there's no universal chin na training system throughout Chinese martial arts. Different systems might have different methods.

That's right but qin na is qin na. Be it qin na from taiji or from choy li fut. Qin na is a set of ideas, principles & methods. Each style/system/family/whatever is CMA is going to have qin na to match it. The qin na found in CLF may share techs & such with taiji, but not wholly or competely.

The qin na I've learned in CLF shares some ideas, principles & methods I've encountered in the Bujinkan training I've had before. Not the same but similar. In the Buj, it wasn't called qin na.

The qin na I've learned in CLF shares some ideas, principles & methods I've encountered in taiji & bagua training I've had before. Not the same, but similar except since it's CMA, it's called qin na.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Oh... a "bit". San Soo is stretching to be called CMA. I've seen it. I've seen Jimmy Woo on video. At best it's CMA because it's karate taught by a ethnic Chinese.

Kung Fu San Soo is Karate??? Your expertise is soooo obvious. You don't even know CMA when you see it.

Kuntao. Is that the IMA/FMA Kuntao or a Hokkien art? Which one?

Mostly Fukien (Thit Kun & Thay Lohan Tjie) with some Shantung. I'm sure you're familiar?

Wow... don't update the profile for lack of reason & somebody gets their feelings hurt.

Who brought up the profiles again? Uh, YOU.

Everything on it is real. Name too.... I updated it just for you.

Sure. Though, supposedly you've done Chinese Long Fist for so many years, with no rank, & you haven't posted where or with whom you train. & BTW, that www.georgiakungfu.com link hasn't worked since at least December '05.

How much hands on time do you have with Dr Yang or Tim Cartmell?

None, but it's very similar to what we do already, just more complex. I get most of it from video, supplementing with books.

You don't. You do IMA. Your art has CMA influences given Indonesia's melting pot culture. CMA has influenced the native IMA arts.

Well, I'm one gen from the most recent "CMA influences", which I listed above.
Oh, wait, I thought that "qinna" wasn't exclusive to CMAs, right? Isn't that what this whole conversation is about? Is my "qinna" not "qinna"?

It be like saying you're fighter jet pilot, but all you've done is flight time in a Cessna with lots of time on the XBox playing jet games. Not quite the same.

Okay. So, any art that has been influenced by Chinese martial arts is worthless, or at least the Chinese aspects of the art? While "qinna" isn't "exclusive to CMAs", any non-CMA's that contain Chinese "qinna" have worthless "qinna"??? You can't possibly be serious... (I'm sure you are, though)

Bud. And you??

Bud Malmstrom? That's it? Kyu rank I suppose?

Can't... body's too old to get into that now.

Huh. Someone should've told all those old guys doin' Judo, from Gene Lebell to Mifune Kyuso.

None... I've piddled with FMA Kali & Arnis stick work. Nothing serious, just exchanging sticks & being taught things about that I didn't know.

I assume that's where your knowledge of qinna in FMAs originates from.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Qin Na by name is found in CMA.

In Judo, FMA, Jujutsu, etc... it's what ever the language of day is to describe the techniques, theories & principles.

Those things will be found. Qin Na won't.

Chin Na, Qin Na, qinna...

Pedantic, anyone?

 

[clfsean]

Ok... I'm tired of this. Seriously.

Doc Jude... I've seen your myspace page. I had earned my 2nd black belt before you entered high school. I'm done with this & you..

Let me answer a few last questions and I'm dropping you on ignore.

1) Yes, no rank in CMA. In a tradtional CMA kwoon, there are no rankings. There's a sifu and there's students. You know where you fall in. I'm not the sifu, so I'm a student. All of my other classmates refer to me though as sihing.

2) Kung Fu San Soo... I've watched plenty of it, seen plenty of it... I'd call it Kenpo rather than CMA. Give your statements, you're the one missing info on CMAs.

3) Buj rank... yeah it was kyu. So what?? Does it make a difference?

4) You admit you've done 0 training in qin na yet insist you can learn it & supplement it from video & book. That shows exactly what you don't get about it.

5) I don't play judo because I'm not feeling quite like starting it nowadays. What does LaBell or Mifune have to do with it?? They'd been doing for decades at my age. Where the hell did that come from??

6) My comments concerning other arts & qin na have been so misconstrued by you it's not funny. Let me bottom line this... qin na is qin na. Jujutsu is jujutsu. They are not the other. They share things but they are not the other. You can find the contents & other things within each collectively & individually. FMA grappling (no idea at the Tagalog) is not qin na. It is whatever it is.

-----------
You may know your version of silat & other related arts. I never had said I did. You wouldn't catch me trying to tell you what you do & don't know about it. Yet you feel the need to try to tell me what qin na is or is not with 0 hard time in CMA.

Fine... enjoy yourself.

I just think you've missed the meanings of adat & hormat.

You're now ignored.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Ok... I'm tired of this. Seriously.

Doc Jude... I've seen your myspace page. I had earned my 2nd black belt before you entered high school.

HA! In what? Some Tae Kwon Leap Kiddie program???

I'm done with this & you..

Why? Is your e-identity falling apart?

Let me answer a few last questions and I'm dropping you on ignore.

1) Yes, no rank in CMA. In a tradtional CMA kwoon, there are no rankings. There's a sifu and there's students. You know where you fall in. I'm not the sifu, so I'm a student. All of my other classmates refer to me though as sihing.

Funny, you claim rank elsewhere... huh. More contradictions to your e-identity...

2) Kung Fu San Soo... I've watched plenty of it, seen plenty of it... I'd call it Kenpo rather than CMA. Give your statements, you're the one missing info on CMAs.

Funny, the Kenpo and San Soo that I've seen is quite different.

3) Buj rank... yeah it was kyu. So what?? Does it make a difference?

4 years in the Bujinkan, with a kyu rank? From what I understand, it took you at least three years to reach 7th kyu. So, I wonder how many other "years" of martial arts experience you're overstating. Anyone, & I mean ANYONE, should have 7th kyu in 6 months. What was the problem?

4) You admit you've done 0 training in qin na yet insist you can learn it & supplement it from video & book. That shows exactly what you don't get about it.

You're thoroughly confused, clearly. The grappling in our Kuntao is very similar to what I've found elsewhere. Kinda like doing years of Jujutsu, & then picking up a Jujutsu book or vid done by someone you've ever met but being able to "get it", and even estimate their skill? Maybe even play with the techniques they lay out rather easily? It comes with real experience.

5) I don't play judo because I'm not feeling quite like starting it nowadays. What does LaBell or Mifune have to do with it?? They'd been doing for decades at my age. Where the hell did that come from??

First you're too old, now you're "not feeling quite like starting it nowadays"? Get over it.

6) My comments concerning other arts & qin na have been so misconstrued by you it's not funny. Let me bottom line this... qin na is qin na. Jujutsu is jujutsu. They are not the other. They share things but they are not the other. You can find the contents & other things within each collectively & individually. FMA grappling (no idea at the Tagalog) is not qin na. It is whatever it is.

So, I'll ask again: if "qin na" isn't exclusive to CMAs, where else can it be found?

You may know your version of silat & other related arts. I never had said I did. You wouldn't catch me trying to tell you what you do & don't know about it. Yet you feel the need to try to tell me what qin na is or is not with 0 hard time in CMA.

Fine... enjoy yourself.

I just think you've missed the meanings of adat & hormat.

You're now ignored.

Pity you never answered my questions. Oh, & respect goes both ways, & no hyper-inflated Internet martial arts identity/CMA snob is going to get my respect.

 

[theletch1]

[playnice]Jeff Letchford[/playnice]

 

[Doc_Jude]

wow, i got a little excited when i saw the topic header, but disappointed to read this conversation. how 'bout...

we talk about :
1. how chin na may differ from joint locking found in arts outside chinese

In my experience, the Chinese methods of joint locking work on the fingers more than any other. Grasping the fingers, whether on a grabbing hand or the intercepting hand, and the use of the joints proximal to the fingers to increase leverage is unique to Chinese grappling methods.
Also, the ways that Chin Na's grab counters turn into immobilizations is pretty ingenious.

2. differences between muscle/bone separation from tendon twisting/tearing

Are you talking more about Eagle Claw attacks vs Fen Jin twist&Bend?

3. strategies for locking to submit vs. locking to throw, vs locking to strike

For me, other factors come into locking. Who I'm grappling, and if it's a multiple opponent scenario. For example, a wrist press like Qian Ya Wan is very useful for both submitting, throwing, or keeping other attackers at bay. You can even throw them into their friends with techniques like this that keep them up on their toes.

4. multi-attacker and weapon scenarios

In weapon scenarios, only techniques that move to the side or back of a knife wielder are wise. "Turning Body Elbow Wrap" (Zhuan Shen Chan Zhou) is great for attacks from the rear and multi-attacker scenarios especially since it moves you away from other possible attackers, & if you work a strike into the middle of the technique, as you usually can with a technique that has an initial control to it, it's much more effective.

 

[pete]

thanks (finally) for your direct response. I am, in no way looking to 'take over' this thread, but i think most will agree this to be a better direction by sticking to topic instead of staging personal inquisitions...

i don't have musch time now, and will not be on the 'puter for the rest of the day, so allow me to comment on #1 now and hope to get to the others when time better permits.

Chin Na that based on what I have learned through my Tai Chi teacher (W.Ting) and hands-on with Dr Yang through all 6 levels of his training program over 5 years, i agree that Chin Na includes grasping fingers, thumb, and hand in its arsenal... HOWEVER, the point of Chin Na is not to simply lock the joint being touched, or rely solely on 'pain compliance', BUT to USE YOUR WHOLE BODY TO CONTROL YOUR OPPONENT'S WHOLE BODY. That means controlling their CENTER, their spine, their tantien.

So Fingers are just an entry point, as would be an elbow or shoulder.

I cannot speak for other non-CMA arts being compared with Chin Na, but would like to learn from thise who can: is this same, similar, or completely different from what you do?

pete

 

[Xue Sheng]

"A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow..."

Just like "joint locking" isn't exclusively British just because you say it in English and might have learned it in the UK from an Englishman

Just as a note and a bit of an addition actually to the above, not arguing the point

Chinese Grappling is Shuaijiao (which is incredibly old) which is not is not Judo, Jujitsu, MMA, BJJ, Kempo, Taiji, Wing Chun, Bujinkan, TKD or JKD.

And to be honest I do not know what the argument is about either.

Why do we have the need to associate things that are not CMA with CMA? Did it come from CMA, possibly but who cares.

I would not train Jujitsu and say I was doing Qinna any more than I would train Wing Chun and call it JKD.

 

[kaizasosei]

I would not train Jujitsu and say I was doing Qinna any more than I would train Wing Chun and call it JKD.

good point.
when it comes to definitions, they have to be internatlized in order to be into use. it would appear that the definitions of the arts seemed to some to be the art itself. that is not really the case. for that reason, it doesn't make sense to say; to burn fire or wash water-
except in certain rituals of veneration where i have come across these ideas.
furthermore, although it would be great if everyone understood things the same to be able to communicate, what one person thinks about a art may be different from the experiences of another. even for longtime practitioners, there are still things that make them unique-
form is a big factor however. the question is, is it just the physical form or some sort of spirit or attitude that becomes movement with certain qualities. for example the animal styles.

there are differences in the arts. both positive and negative i would imagine.
form is only a sort of guideline. if someone discovers some use for the techniques(the guidelines), then that's great. but one should always know that there is very much to learn in any one given system.
in the same way, it would be unrealistic to deny connections between all arts.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Chin Na that based on what I have learned through my Tai Chi teacher (W.Ting) and hands-on with Dr Yang through all 6 levels of his training program over 5 years, i agree that Chin Na includes grasping fingers, thumb, and hand in its arsenal... HOWEVER, the point of Chin Na is not to simply lock the joint being touched, or rely solely on 'pain compliance', BUT to USE YOUR WHOLE BODY TO CONTROL YOUR OPPONENT'S WHOLE BODY. That means controlling their CENTER, their spine, their tantien.

So Fingers are just an entry point, as would be an elbow or shoulder.

I cannot speak for other non-CMA arts being compared with Chin Na, but would like to learn from thise who can: is this same, similar, or completely different from what you do?

pete

Many of the techniques in the styles that I've trained do not focus on this as much as the Chinese systems. I think that this aspect of Chin Na is superior to other arts. Of course, most grappling arts have some aspect of taking the opponent's balance or "center", through footwork, body positioning when applying the technique, and the appropriate application of either mechanical or pain compliance.
Of course, I'm only coming from my study of JMAs and Pentjak Silat (my style has a rather liberal helping of CMAs, namely Kuntao and Taijiquan for the grappling aspects)

 

[Josh Oakley]

2) Kung Fu San Soo... I've watched plenty of it, seen plenty of it... I'd call it Kenpo rather than CMA. Give your statements, you're the one missing info on CMAs.

I teach kempo and used to train in San Soo in El Paso, TX. I came up to Washington and switched to Kempo because it was the closest thing to San Soo I could find. In fact, they're VERY similar. But there are differences. I'd say they came up the same mountain on different paths.

San Soo actually does have an established lineage, and the way it's trained in America, to a degree, is not how they train in China. In china, they don't have belts, and certain training aspects are different. But it's still San Soo, not Kempo.