Chi Nas/Qinna instructionals!!

[clfsean]

Yes, yes, yes. There are grappling arts everywhere that result in pain for the "grappled". However, it IS the little differences that make these arts unique. There are Chin Na methods that I've never seen in JJJ or Bujinkan or any other grappling art that I've spent time with. Even the Small Circle Jujutsu that I've done didn't have the extensive coverage of finger manipulation.

Well I can't help the shortcomings you've run across or experienced in your training.

What I can say from first hand experience with chin na and with ju-jutsu is the method may be different, the technique unique or specific to "that" flavor of the day you're doing, but the ultimate lock, destruction, manipulation, pressure point, throw, drop, hyper extension, etc... isn't.

 

[theletch1]

Joint locking requires a certain subtlety to accomplish. It's not a direct frontal assault that gets you into the lock. It's much the same when dealing with people in conversation. Your point is often much better interpreted when couched less abruptly.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Well I can't help the shortcomings you've run across or experienced in your training.

What I can say from first hand experience with chin na and with ju-jutsu is the method may be different, the technique unique or specific to "that" flavor of the day you're doing, but the ultimate lock, destruction, manipulation, pressure point, throw, drop, hyper extension, etc... isn't.

Shortcomings. Okay.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Qinna is well.... Qinna :EG:

Everything else is joint locking :uhyeah:

Qinna by definition is "joint locking" and "muscle and tendon tearing", it is not pretty and it is incredibly painful to train, as is just about any other style that uses a similar joint locking system.

But in CMA Qinna can be just that Qinna and that is what you train and all you train...Qinna.

Or it can be part of another CMA style and just about every CMA style has Qinna in it to varying degrees, some more than others. Same goes for
Shuaijiao it is an art all to itself and it is also to in every other CMA to varying degrees.

Qinna is not Judo, Jujitsu, MMA, BJJ, Kempo, Taiji, Wing Chun, Bujinkan, TKD or JKD. They all may have something form Qinna in them but they are not Qinna. There is a WHOLE hand strengthening training that goes along with Qinna that I HIGHLY doubt most of us (including me) do.

As for Dr Yang's books, I liked them.

Yes, you are correct. Others are wrong.

 

[clfsean]

Joint locking requires a certain subtlety to accomplish. It's not a direct frontal assault that gets you into the lock.

IME the frontal assault allows for the locking to occur since the target isn't paying attention to what you're doing to the limb.

It's much the same when dealing with people in conversation. Your point is often much better interpreted when couched less abruptly.

Maybe but I've never been one to mince words or go for gentle. I speak plain & bunt. Less chance for misinterpretation of topic, save meaning/intent of dialog. But I understand what you're saying.

 

[clfsean]

Yes, you are correct. Others are wrong.

Since you can be expert enough to call him correct & "others" not... maybe you'd care to expound on your strict CMA training??

 

[Doc_Jude]

Since you can be expert enough to call him correct & "others" not... maybe you'd care to expound on your strict CMA training??

Real experts in Chin Na, published, recognized, and respected say the same as Xue Sheng. My experience is limited to Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's system and some study of Tim Cartmell's materials, and I compare it to a decade of Bujinkan, 4 years of Danzan Ryu and Small Circle Jujutsu, frequent training with a friend & Daito-ryu Sandan over the last 6 months I spent in Japan, and the Aikido from a friend's family art here in the Victorville area. Oh, and the grappling from my current Silat training.

You are an anonymous voice here that seems to disagree with the rest of the established Chin Na authorities.

You can go right ahead and believe what you like, of course. It's a free country.

Of course, it doesn't add to your credibility when you say...

Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA.

A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow...

Ninjutsu is exclusive to JMA... because of the name, organization of techniques, skills, etc...

Obvious pedestrian contradiction.

 

[Taijiman]

Chin na isn't a formalized grappling system, though it can be and is. Of course it's a different system depending on who's teaching it Still, it's just language for a certain type of technique. You show a teacher who only understands Chinese one of these types of techniques regardless of it's name in its native tongue, and it's still chin na. It's not that hard to figure out. Not sure what everyone's arguing about, lol.

 

[Taijiman]

"A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow..."

Just like "joint locking" isn't exclusively British just because you say it in English and might have learned it in the UK from an Englishman

 

[clfsean]

Real experts in Chin Na, published, recognized, and respected say the same as Xue Sheng. My experience is limited to Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's system and some study of Tim Cartmell's materials, and I compare it to a decade of Bujinkan, 4 years of Danzan Ryu and Small Circle Jujutsu, frequent training with a friend & Daito-ryu Sandan over the last 6 months I spent in Japan, and the Aikido from a friend's family art here in the Victorville area. Oh, and the grappling from my current Silat training.

Ok... so you have non-CMA training. Plenty of it, but exactly if I'm not wrong again ... 0 time hands on with a CMA style, in a CMA school, with a CMA teacher, performing CMA techniques. That about sums it up, right?

You are an anonymous voice here that seems to disagree with the rest of the established Chin Na authorities.

I'm not anonymous. My info is posted here. Yours appears to be lacking in contact & info materials.

You can go right ahead and believe what you like, of course. It's a free country.

I do. I also practice CMA everyday, which happens to include CMA grappling/locking/throwing/pressure controls/destructions/etc...

Of course, it doesn't add to your credibility when you say...

My credibility isn't my worry. My worry right now is somebody who doesn't practice any CMA spouting off about what's correct or not, found or not or anything like that since there's no point of reference to shoot from.

At least I have the JMA background in ju-jutsu & control techniques to compare to CMA and be able to go ... "Ok ... in JMA I did 'X' like this & in CMA I do 'X' like this". You don't

A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow...

I didn't say a grappling system. I said the techniques. I said principles. You're not going to find qinna in judo. You'll find shuai jiao in judo. You're not going to find qinna in FMA. You're going to find similar ideas & principles done with a FMA mindset & skill set.

Obvious pedestrian contradiction.

Truth... 2x4... is there a connection???

 

[Doc_Jude]

"A Chinese grappling system, with a Chinese name, is somehow not exclusive to CMA's, while somehow..."

Just like "joint locking" isn't exclusively British just because you say it in English and might have learned it in the UK from an Englishman

Like Welsh Wrestling?

 

[Doc_Jude]

Ok... so you have non-CMA training. Plenty of it, but exactly if I'm not wrong again ... 0 time hands on with a CMA style, in a CMA school, with a CMA teacher, performing CMA techniques. That about sums it up, right?

Actually, I've done a bit of San Soo and Kuntao, which I can only assume contains "qinna" since both are Chinese and both have grappling techniques, though not as technical or sophisticated as the Chin Na of. Obviously the CMA styles that Dr. Yang represents contain more comprehensive systems of Chin Na.

I'm not anonymous. My info is posted here. Yours appears to be lacking in contact & info materials.

You have a name, real or imagined, a claim to train in a single art while being totally unranked after years of "everyday" training, and a website link that goes nowhere. No, you don't have any contact info.

I do. I also practice CMA everyday, which happens to include CMA grappling/locking/throwing/pressure controls/destructions/etc...

Really? Where, & with whom? Your profile & link provide no info.

My credibility isn't my worry. My worry right now is somebody who doesn't practice any CMA spouting off about what's correct or not, found or not or anything like that since there's no point of reference to shoot from.

Where did you get the idea that I don't practice CMA? CMAs make up a large portion of my current art (Taijiquan/Kuntao/KungFu SanSoo) and I bring other sources of Chin Na into my training (Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, Tim Cartmell, Al Arsenault).

At least I have the JMA background in ju-jutsu & control techniques to compare to CMA and be able to go ... "Ok ... in JMA I did 'X' like this & in CMA I do 'X' like this". You don't

Really... with whom did you train in the Bujinkan?

I didn't say a grappling system. I said the techniques. I said principles. You're not going to find qinna in judo. You'll find shuai jiao in judo.

No qinna in judo??? You should do some more judo.

You're not going to find qinna in FMA. You're going to find similar ideas & principles done with a FMA mindset & skill set.

Are you sure? How many FMAs have you trained in?

 

[pete]

wow, i got a little excited when i saw the topic header, but disappointed to read this conversation. how 'bout...

we talk about :
1. how chin na may differ from joint locking found in arts outside chinese
2. differences between muscle/bone separation from tendon twisting/tearing
3. strategies for locking to submit vs. locking to throw, vs locking to strike
4. multi-attacker and weapon scenarios

and
5. those other areas of chin na that haven't even entered this dialog, sealing the breath and cavity press.

pete

 

[Doc_Jude]

You're not going to find qinna in judo...
You're not going to find qinna in FMA...

So, Chin Na isn't exclusive to CMAs, but in your esteemed opinion, there is no "qinna" in Judo, and no "qinna" in the entirety of FMAs. Where will "qinna" be found, pray tell?

 

[Taijiman]

Like Welsh Wrestling?

I know exactly zilch about Welsh Wresting, so I have know idea I suppose the term "Chin Na" would be like saying "Wrestling". Chin Na doesn't have a common starting point, but rather is a category of technique found within many different fighting styles... though you could extract chin na techniques from various sources and come up with a pretty comprehensive training system based on those techniques, and slap an aditional label to it to differentiate it or be more specific if you wanted to (like "Shaolin Chin Na", or "Taijiguy's Hot 'n Sexy Midwestern chin na training system")

 

[Taijiman]

I'm pretty sure FMA contains "chin na"... I have no idea what their term for that kind of stuff would be though. I only had a little FMA stick fighting training here and there... but I did have a teacher who learned some of his chin na through FMA

 

[clfsean]

Actually, I've done a bit of San Soo and Kuntao, which I can only assume contains "qinna" since both are Chinese and both have grappling techniques, though not as technical or sophisticated as the Chin Na of. Obviously the CMA styles that Dr. Yang represents contain more comprehensive systems of Chin Na.

Oh... a "bit". San Soo is stretching to be called CMA. I've seen it. I've seen Jimmy Woo on video. At best it's CMA because it's karate taught by a ethnic Chinese.

Kuntao. Is that the IMA/FMA Kuntao or a Hokkien art? Which one?

You have a name, real or imagined, a claim to train in a single art while being totally unranked after years of "everyday" training, and a website link that goes nowhere. No, you don't have any contact info.

Wow... don't update the profile for lack of reason & somebody gets their feelings hurt.

Everything on it is real. Name too.

Really? Where, & with whom? Your profile & link provide no info.

I updated it just for you.

Where did you get the idea that I don't practice CMA? CMAs make up a large portion of my current art (Taijiquan/Kuntao/KungFu SanSoo) and I bring other sources of Chin Na into my training (Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, Tim Cartmell, Al Arsenault).

How much hands on time do you have with Dr Yang or Tim Cartmell?

You don't. You do IMA. Your art has CMA influences given Indonesia's melting pot culture. CMA has influenced the native IMA arts.

It be like saying you're fighter jet pilot, but all you've done is flight time in a Cessna with lots of time on the XBox playing jet games. Not quite the same.

Really... with whom did you train in the Bujinkan?

Bud. And you??

No qinna in judo??? You should do some more judo.

Can't... body's too old to get into that now.

Are you sure? How many FMAs have you trained in?

None... I've piddled with FMA Kali & Arnis stick work. Nothing serious, just exchanging sticks & being taught things about that I didn't know.

 

[Taijiman]

1. how chin na may differ from joint locking found in arts outside chinese

Well, in my brief time with Hapkido (about 6 months) is seemed most of the techniques revolved around one type of lock (the kaluki?) and while rougher than the Akido I'd seen, it really focused on using your opponents strength against them. Kind of the stereotypical taiji approach. Not much force on force. In the chin na I've seen from the Shaolin related systems, there's a lot more grip and arm strength training so you can muscle through techniques if you have to. With my last teacher, if I remember correctly (I didn't get very extensive training in his chin na system) you started off learning 36 base techniques which you would then build off of. And there was lots of strength training... dynamic tension tiger clawing, fingertip push-ups, partner exercises to develop strength like reversing a wrist lock while the other person resisted as strongly as they could... lots of stuff like that.

 

[clfsean]

So, Chin Na isn't exclusive to CMAs, but in your esteemed opinion, there is no "qinna" in Judo, and no "qinna" in the entirety of FMAs. Where will "qinna" be found, pray tell?

Qin Na by name is found in CMA.

In Judo, FMA, Jujutsu, etc... it's what ever the language of day is to describe the techniques, theories & principles.

Those things will be found. Qin Na won't.

 

[Taijiman]

Unless your speaking Chinese... If I use Tagalog terminology with my Chinese speaking teacher, he's not going to know what the hell I'm talking about When I'm talking to a mixed group of martial artists who speak English, I'm going to use English terminology. If I'm talking to mainly CMA people, I'm going to use a combination most likely. As for principles and training methods... there's no universal chin na training system throughout Chinese martial arts. Different systems might have different methods.