Chi Kung form form muscle development and strength

Discussion in 'Chinese Martial Arts - General' started by Curios7877, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. Curios7877

    Curios7877 White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2021
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Very interesting thank you! Is there also something that works "muscle against muscle" like in Goju Ryu Sanchin with high tension. Where the agonist muscles have to work against the antagonist? I feel like that these exercises might not be the best for getting "jacked" one might from dynamic tension benefit for grappling applications
     
  2. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    30,705
    Likes Received:
    4,936
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    Bruce Lee: The Art of Expressing the Human Body
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,406
    Likes Received:
    1,432
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    well,,,,,,, do you want to increase your strengh? if so those exercises are an extremly effective way of doing it with out gym equipment or more than a modest investment in time.

    i find some of those extremly chalenging, if you dont, then your already very strong and there will be a progresion for you

    pick half a dozen and do them for a minete each every day for a month and your torso strengh will increase greatly, torso strengh is were all effective strengh lies,, strong arms and legs are usless with out it, even more so for grappeling applications

    will you get jacked? yes probably, if you do the same excercises as those guys you will end up with much the same body pattern, though being jacked and having significant strengh are not always or even very often the same thing

    dynamic tension were your locking one muscle gròup and then moving it with another are great, but they take a well developed nervious system to work well, that is your already pretty dam strong ( otherwise your resisting a very weak muscle with an equally weak muscle and youl get nowhere fast like that)and have the capacity to activate the fibres to get maximal contraction and the resisting muscle to 99.9 % of the moving muscles which is harder than it sounds, but if you want to do them, do them, its easy, lock the muscles and move them, body builder poses are all you need or do them within a kata
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
  4. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,426
    Likes Received:
    455
    Trophy Points:
    123
    It's hard to tell if you're joking, but since you disagreed with my post, I'll assume you're being serious.

    Context matters. My reply was valid in the context of the original question.
    The OP wanted muscle building, external strength training. Qigong does not do that. Weight-bearing exercises do that.

    "Qigong therapy can be of “internal” or “external” forms. Internal qigong refers to the self practice of mind-body-breathing integration techniques such as Tai chi or meditation. EQT
    [External Qigong Therapy] involves hand movements, similar to therapeutic touch, acupressure on specific points, focused attention (possible visualization), and other mind healing techniques to direct the therapist’s own qi into the patient." Effects of External Qigong Therapy on Osteoarthritis of the Knee A Randomized Controlled Trial

    "External" can have more than one meaning.
    Regarding qigong, it has nothing to do with building muscles.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. Oily Dragon

    Oily Dragon Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 2, 2020
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I think you missed my point. Qigong, Yoga, Pilates, are all bodyweight exercises. Alone, there will be a plateau as far as strength training and that limit is based on your weight. The bigger you are, the better. If you're small and shrimp, you will become svelte and stalwart.

    Because of that, specifically for smaller people, some systems like Qigong add extra (metal) weights. These aren't part of the qigong, they are things people added to make the qigong more effective for building strength.

    This is why elderly Tai Chi people just rely on their bodyweight, and beefier external Wei Gong practitioners cover themselves in stone, bronze, or medicine balls.
     
  6. Oily Dragon

    Oily Dragon Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 2, 2020
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    You're suggesting there is no Wei Gong, specifically the building body muscle, sinew, tendon, and ligament qigong?

    Your knowledge of Qigong appears pretty limited.

    What Qigong sets do you actually know? I can tell you which sets include lunges and squats, by contrast.
     
  7. Curios7877

    Curios7877 White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2021
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    1

    I definately understand your point, of course the bodyweight is the crucial factor in that context. But with a Isontonic dynamic tension exercise set like Goju Sanchin were muscle works against muscle the strengthening effect would theoretecially still exist in zero gravity because the resistance does not depend on gravitational pull of one own body. But certainly the problem stays almost the same when your muscles are weak than you train "against" these weak muscles and you would be able to get much stronger. Nevertheless my interest at a Chi Kung form that is mainly a "dynamic" isometric exercise set that has it's focus on the external strengthening effect (like the Sanchin of Goju Ryu) resides.Very Sorry for my horrible english, it's not my first language
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. minn8325

    minn8325 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    The issue with dynamic tension is Isometrics only make you stronger at isometric so you’ll develop visable muscle over time but none of it will transfer into moving strength.

    Dynamic tension was the core of Charles Atlas’s mail program.

    That be said I am a big fan of Tai-Chi because I like doing it. It’s fun and relaxing check out - San Diego Tai Chi (Taiji)/Chi Kung Information
     
  9. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,406
    Likes Received:
    1,432
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    well thats not true, there is a disconect between iso and the full range of motion, but iso will increase strengh markedly for 15 degree of motion each side of the hold point.

    its not the hardest thing to do, 3/4/5 holds and get the benifits over the full range of motion but where they are especials useful, is where there is weakness in the power curve of a movement or you have a need to be very strong at point in the movement, such as straight arm push strengh and for muscle that only have a very short range of movement to start off with, like the pectoral
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. minn8325

    minn8325 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    This is all true in powerlifting where the goal is to be tight and fast in a very specific range of motion under load.

    not as much in unweighted whole/part natural motion. Powerlifting, Strongman, and Weightlifting are stand alone sports with training goals for those sports.
     
  11. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,406
    Likes Received:
    1,432
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    there can be a disconect between weight lifting and real world strengh, as real world strengh is as much about intermuscle co ordination as it is about the strengh of any particular muscle. and if the lift your doing doesnt match the real world it can leave you looking weak

    but and its a big but, having strong / healthy muscles as a base and then learning to co ordinate them in real world movements is a more efficient way of going about things than focusing on the techneque and hoping your get stronger
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. minn8325

    minn8325 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2021
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Sorry about all that I just found the ignore button didn’t mean to thread jack you with side conversations.
     
  13. Oily Dragon

    Oily Dragon Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 2, 2020
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Maybe it's a semantic issue, because dynamic means movement to me, so "dynamic isometric" means...idk.

    Consider Zhan zhuang, a pretty common qigong set. I'd classify it alone as internal, static, and isometric when done on its own.

    But in Tai Chi, the same is part of dynamic, isometric and isotonic combos. You spend time shifting between movement and stillness in a rthymic pattern.

    It's still internal, and stand alone is valuable, but it's value in Tai Chi is multipled for the reason JoJo mentioned.

    Now contrast with Southern Shaolin Iron Thread, which is similar but is far more like Charles Atlas's idea of dynamic tension, making it internal from an external point of view, but defintely external from a Tai Chi point of view.

    If none of that makes any sense, welcome to Kung Fu.
     
  14. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,578
    Likes Received:
    617
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Iron thread/wire is a dynamic tension set in some kung fu styles (Hung Gar/Jow Gar for a couple).

    There is also a set called, "stone warrior" that was done by Green Dragon Studios. It was put together by the head of the school, Sifu Allen and not a traditional set (I believe it was marketed as a traditional set though).


    If your background was Goju-ryu, you can also train Seisan in the manner of Sanchin and incorporate the Hojo Undo tools used. In the Shuri based styles (Shorin-Ryu), Seisan was originally taught as their strength and conditioning kata since they didn't use Sanchin.123
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1

Share This Page