Chambering the fist like in the forms is unrealistic

Discussion in 'Beginners Corner' started by JowGaWolf, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Many of us have probably heard others say mention how TMA practitioners chamber their fists is not realistic to actual fighting. We would never see anyone chamber their fist like this in a real fight. It's an outdated technique. which is we don't see it in MMA. blah blah blah.

    upload_2019-11-4_23-40-59.png


    I'm pretty sure that there are some beginner martial artist out there who really want to know what the deal is about the chambered first. Do people use chambered fist like the guy in the picture above? The short answer is yes. Below is a picture of me sparring. I originally posted this image to talking about kicking people in the ribs and making your opponent commit. And it occurred to me that I have a text book TMA chambered fist. In the image, I'm transitioning into a thrust punch which

    [​IMG]

    In the image I'm transitioning into a thrust punch. And in drills this is how the one of our thrust punches start off as.

    So what is the value of chamberig the fist? It depends on what technique you are doing. In this particular case, By having my hand chambered like this, I can put more weight and power into my punch, Chambering my punch like this will also make my punch straight. Elbows out punches are usually weaker than elbows in punches and aren't as accurate. Many times people expect to see things exactly like in the form or drill, so if I'm standing in a horse stance doing punches then they expect to see that same thing in the fight. Sometimes you will see exactly what was practiced in the form, but other times you'll see component of things that you drilled.

    In Jow Ga kung fu, we do a lot of chambering of the fist. Traditional arts in general do a lot of fist chamabering and there are many people who think it's a waste. For me there is very little about what's in the forms that are a waste, even if it seems like "no one would ever fight with a chambered fist" I'm willing to bet that it's more common than we think. By the way if you chamber your fist during training then it will get to a point where you don't even realize you are doing it. This vidoe is about 4 or 5 years old and I'm just now realizing that I have a chambered fist in this video.

    Keep training hard and trust your techniques.
     
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  2. Rat

    Rat 2nd Black Belt

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    My annoyance mainly comes from them having you drop a guard, or a head guard to re chamber when your head guard is probably 10x more useful. Or i should say, when they get you to drop a guard in a fighting drill.

    Also there is some semi old guards for western style boxing which have one of your hands over your solar plexus area which you could call a "chamber".

    And will you use a chamber if you arent taught it? if thats the case isnt the point null if you dont practice a style which does it as it wont be in your muscle memory to do.

    Ultimately might be down to preference, like with how you choose a guard, its all down to your preference and situation.
     
  3. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I've literally never been told to drop my guard from a head height guard to in chamber. If I'm drilling with my guard up, that guard is the chamber position. Only time that I would be rechambering to the hip in drills is if that's where I started from.
     
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  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    There is a difference to what people do and what they should do.

    So lthough I do flail around a bit during sparring it doesn't make it a technique.
     
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  5. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Without thinking I'm going to go on a limb and say that in application it's not like that. In training yes, but I can't think of any real work application where that occurs except in point sparring. Where they pose after landing a punch.. This is probably more common in Point Sparring than Continuous Sparring where you have to defend against strikes that are still coming in.
     

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  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Not sure why the attached files followed again. just ignore those
     
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    For the preying mantis system, during the advance level training, the non-striking hand doesn't come back to the waist. This is the major difference between a style that emphasizes on "power generation" (such as Baji), vs a style that emphasizes on "speed generation" (such as preying mantis).

    This also separate a form that's "principle" base (such as long fist) vs. a form that's "application" base (such as preying mantis).

    In the following clip, you don't see the non-punching hand come back to the waist. The reason is simple, your non-striking hand has to deal with your opponent's arm. It doesn't have the luxury to come back to your waist.

     
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  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Not sure what you mean about principal vs application.. Other systems chamber the fist as well.

    Chambered punch. No need to for Tyson to deal with the opponents right hand here.

    View attachment 22564

    Chambered fist again. Guy on the left could not twist his body in this manner had he not chambered the fist.
    [​IMG]

    Both fighters are chambered their right arm here. One got KO'd
    upload_2019-11-5_20-24-14.png

    Chambered punch here.
    upload_2019-11-5_20-27-23.png

    Sugar Ray Leonard Clambering his punches. When left fist strikes right arm chambers, to load the punch for when the left hand returns.


    Ali chambered his punches too
     
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  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you need to use your other hand to deal with your opponent's arm, you don't have the luxury to pull your hand back to your waist.

    Application base form - you fight exactly as you train.
    Principle base form - you have to modify your form in fighting.

     
  10. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    There is just no good reason to have your fist tucked away at your hip or below your shoulder. You won't hit any harder, you are undefended, and due to distance anything thrown from there will be telegraphed to the moon.
     
  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I believe one of the purposes to pull your non-punching hand back to your waist is to extend your punching arm to obtain the maximum reach.
     
  12. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I cant say anything about pulling it all the way to your hips, but if you throw a bolo punch you'll be dropping your fist below your shoulder. It's an angles game sometimes, and going from below can help out with that (as long as you're in a position you're not worried about getting hit from).
     
  13. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    There are numerous reasons to chamber the fist at the waist when practicing basics or kata. We don't fight like that in practical terms. Anyone who thinks my arms are locked to my hips because they've seen me practice punches like that should spar with me and find out.
     
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  14. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Green Belt

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    Hand on the hip? There is a method to this madness. To further detail Bill's statements:

    For beginners, chambering the fist back to the hip as you are punching with the other teaches reciprocating power generation, channeling the power of the returning hand to the punching hand. Imagine (or actually try it) grabbing your belt ends in either hand and looping the belt around a post. As you pull back one hand, the other hand automatically extends into a punch. The harder/faster one hand comes back, the harder/faster the other one goes out. As one advances in skill, the returning hand can lend power without chambering all the way to the hip. This is in addition to power generated by hips and legs.

    I think this topic has been discussed before, but its worth going over again. Chojun Miyagi (Goju founder) wrote that in kata, a chambered hand usually has something in it (read: a part of the opponent.) Traditional Okinawan karate has a lot of grabbing and pulling. So, when chambering a hand to the hip, you are usually pulling the opponent in for a strike.

    Other than this, one does NOT want to have a chambered hand on the hip. It's too far away from the target and so takes much longer to land. The exception to this would be if the opponent has been so set up by you (or is so slow) that you have the luxury of winding up for a kill shot. Normal angled fighting stance would have the rear hand close to the chest, arm protecting vital organs and fist ready to fire. Choki Motobu taught this in the 1920's and 30's and is illustrated in his book on kumite.
     
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  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The hand that you pull back to your waist, do you keep your "large fist eye" facing outside, or do you keep your "larger fist eye" facing upward?

    Do you think this may make some difference?

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Right - large fist eye.
    Left - small fist eye.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It has long been my opinion that - in many systems, but perhaps not all - the extreme chamber is an approach to teaching specific principles and mechanics. It may or may not be useful in any given application, but appears to work for teaching how to punch. There are other approaches (I can't recall ever seeing the extreme chamber taught in a boxing video).

    I can come up with a few circumstances where bringing that hand back may be useful. I can come up with many circumstances where the mechanics and principles (rotation, having some "reserve" power at the ready, etc.) are useful. My sparring these days looks like a blend between boxing and TJMA. It almost all derives from fairly typical traditional Japanese drills, and the principles I was taught in them.
     
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  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It depends on the situation. Rarely does the palm face up. Sometimes the palm faces toward me. Mostly, it faces toward the center line. From time to time, I find it facing out. All of those might happen with a fist or with an open hand.
     
  18. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    not so sure, its a particularly good mechanic for throwing very hard punches, its extensively a bench press movement with some upper body rotation thrown in for extra umph, your realy strong from that position, try bench pressing from else where to see what i mean.

    . the down side as you point out is your not defending your head, but then very few people defend their head anyway, even boxers who are trained to have high cover commonly don't, except when they are actually under attack,as its a poor position to throw punches from.

    i fight from a sort of halfway house, with my elbows tucked in, but not as far back as is common with the chambered punch, and my hand at more or less shoulder height, that way i can quickly transition to either taking my elbow back for a chamber punch or moving my hands up to cover.

    im sure a good boxer would exploit that, but a good boxer will knock me over no matter what i do. against the run of the mill, it works quite well
     
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  19. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    But it doesn't give you more reach.
     
  20. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    it gives you more reach than a hook punch, or an upper cut etal, but exactly the same as a straight right
     
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