Can Karate Stand a Chance Against Aikido?

Discussion in 'Beginners Corner' started by Pikaboy777, May 10, 2017.

  1. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I admit I don't know much if anything about your art. But how does it teach you to lose?

    As is so often the case with your posts, at least imho, I simply cannot get any meaning or correlation between your last sentence, and my post or yours. So there is no way I would attempt to answer it.
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think it is because I ask questions nobody ever thinks about. Like when someone says "I cannot afford to lose" it sounds gret but how? How do you practically not lose?

    I lose all the time. I have actively found training partners who will make me lose. If I am always winning. I will place myself in a situation where I am not alway winning.

    Because I can afford to lose.
     
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  3. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I can agree with that.

    Perhaps to paraphrase another answer, "Obviously you aren't training hard enough."

    Again, how does your art teach its practitioners to lose? And to what advantage?

    Is your art only allowed to be practiced in the dojo, and has no use outside of there?
     
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    There are a few advantages to training to loose.

    Basically the starting idea is to train to the point of failure. The idea is you push that point of failure further and further back. But to do that you need to chase that failure and not settle for a win.

    Losing also mentally prepares you for it. So it is not such a distraction in real life and it is not such a blow should it happen.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think I get DB's point here, OTH. We all lose in our training, if we practice full-resistance against people our skill level or higher. Sometimes they'll best us. That's part of training with resistance. And there, losing is a good thing - it's something we can learn a lot from.

    I also understand your point, I think. When training SD, you can't afford to lose the encounter, because on the street you don't know what the consequences might be. So, we take a different mental approach when we're testing/validating our SD work. And since we don't need to score points - don't need to win - we may take a different tactical approach, as well. My first NGA instructor started his career as a cop in NYC (later, and still, teaching DT). He always told me when he had a physical altercation with someone, he was focused on not losing. When he retired from being a cop (and then retired from being a reserve officer), he was "undefeated". He was never looking for a "win", but just to avoid losing.
     
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  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I can't fight while focusing on not losing in the same way I can't ride a motorbike while focusing on not falling off.

    I think it makes you less successful.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't know. I think it's a difference in perception, DB. I've met a lot of folks who train for SD who share this understanding of "not losing". I think it's maybe a difference in how we think, and is what draws us to the training. We know there's no such thing as never losing, but we get the concept from a strategic standpoint. I don't know that it's actually any different than the approach you'd bring to competition, because I can't get into your head. I suspect your "fighting to win" may be quite similar to my "fighting to not lose". Meanwhile, my "fighting to win" doesn't seem to be much like your "fighting to win".
     
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You seem to want to defend against the bad guy. Where as I want the bad guy defending against me. He should be looking to escape. He should be worried about loosing.

    This is not a competition mindset I learned this from street fighters. If I am engaged in a fight I am 100% present. Not half there and half trying to be somewhere else. It doesn't work.

    The idea that you can die in a fight that is constantly drummed into peoples heads is counter productive to getting people to win fights. You dont fill people full of doubt and then send them off to do something risky. That is bad coaching.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's the part that's odd to me (about how I see it, not about how you see it). I'm more prone to putting pressure on than most I've trained with. I think it's pretty much in line with what you're saying your approach is. In fact, the way I teach, my students are used to hearing me say things like, "You're trying to make yourself my problem. Okay, you want me? You got me. Now I'm your problem." Once it starts, I'm not staying in defense. Yet, somehow, the strategy of fighting to not lose still makes more sense to me. Again, I think it's just a difference in perception.

    I'm not sure what the "half there and half somewhere else" comment is about, though.
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    When I go specifically into strategy for street fighting the term I use is fighting conservatively. so that you are not taking big risks for big rewards.

    The half there and half not is how some people fight. So for example the people who want to throw punches but cant get in range because they are afraid of taking punches.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That sounds like a pretty good way of explaining how I see "fighting not to lose". You're probably a more aggressive fighter than I am, on the whole (based upon our choices of training methods and arts), so I'd expect you to be more aggressive than me in most situations, even when you're being conservative. Probably actually a personality difference.

    Agreed. I see sometimes in folks who have done too much light sparring. They get into "reaching to touch", since they don't practice enough hard contact (seems even hard contact on bags and pads reduces this tendency). They are staying out of range of getting hit, and trying to hit. I'm really good at stepping back two inches on these.
     
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  12. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    I agree, you can break fights down in to three classes, one) both want a fight, ,two) nether want to fight, three) one wants to and other doesn't. This puts them ata disadvantage as they are mentally detached and just want to be somewhere else
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
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  13. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    I loved my days training HKD because of just that. No joke intended. Sort of, "Touch me and I'll break it." attitude. Backed-up, too.
     
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  14. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    Sweat it not. Get in class, Any class, and learn. I started in aikid when a kidd it... it was .. better ... in my opinion, to come back to it having established proficiency elsewhere.
     
  15. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    Nah. At my place everyone does get to be Aikido. I'm an aikido instructor and you can come sidekick me. When I get up, having remembered that I am no longer 25, I will still hand you the correct-colored kyu grade belt. If you still need it to hold your pants up -- which would have become evident immediately after said side kick.
     
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  16. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    Drop is talking about being "Switched On," focused, ready to engage, gain advantage and dominate You've talked about lack of Japanese terms in your school, but the related, possibly overlapping mental states which pretty much anyone can achieve of mushin and zanshin apply, imo.
     
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  17. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    Which if I may... you also refer to as half-assing, if I'm getting your terminology right.
     
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  18. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    I'm really good at walking right in to people trying to hit like that, covering them up, putting them on a back corner and then asking them what it was they were previously trying to do. I am wondering (based on Wang's other thread) if I might be doing some sort of bastardized sticky/push hands thing. Probably very badly, but it does work. Those people can't fight, though. Try that on someone who regularly does any sort of full-contact, for real not just in name, and you end up with your face pushed in.
     
  19. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    What if you get a grouping of, one wants to fight and the other does not, but is open to the idea that he/she may not have the authority/ability to decide if there is going to be a fight or not?
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I've seen those terms used so sloppily that I'm no longer sure I know what concepts they cover, JP. I find myself moving away from some of the vocabulary of my early training, though it seemed to serve me well back then.

    Back to the point at hand, I think you're right.
     
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