The Boar Man wrote: I need to make something very clear here. I am not concerned with "styles" or methods, or teachers, or cross-training, or influences. I am only concerned with kata, those of likely Chinese origin. I have not been discussing the "ti" that Okinawans used in fighting, nor in the Hojo undo of Okinawa, the makiwara training, nor the complex kobudo of staff and two handed weapons, nor the free sparring addition to karate by the Japanese. I am interested soley in kata. The historical record points to Chinese origin of the kata. How the Okinawans organized the various kata into various styles, and what other training became part of various systems, is in my view irrelevant to the issue of the origins and purpose of the kata we have today. We do have an inventory of kata that are documented by old masters as being of Chinese origin. We can look at those movements today, and determine if there are military uses of the movements. In addition, posters here can argue over whether this source, or that source, means this, or means that. Let me state this again. This is what has been handed down. 1. Throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, the Okinawans sent convoys of tribute vessels 450 nautical miles to Fuzhou in China every two years. These were laden with valuable cargo on both journeys. They remained at port for up to 6-9 months. They were sailing vessels, and needed to wait until the trade winds of the South China sea went through there annual change (SW from May to August and NE from November to March). 2. In 1719, 1757, 1800 and 1866, the Chinese sent Investiture missions to Okinawa. These missions included hundreds of military personnel as escorts. 3. There are thousands of islands off the coast of China that provided harbor to scores of thousands of pirates. One band was documented in 1805 as having 2000 vessels and 70,000 men. There were many smaller bands. Pirate ships would surround a sailing vessel, launch sulfur bombs to burn the sails, and begin attack with other artillery (arrows were common). 4. The Okinawans lost several vessels to pirates and bad weather. It was a national priority to protect these vessels. 5. Funakoshi documents four military men, as well as a sailor, as having taught combative arts to Okinawans. 6. Higaonna and Nakaima traveled to Fuzhou and received training in fighting arts. Both brought back kata. Sanseru and Seisan were brought back by both. 7. Motobu states that 13 kata were of Chinese origin. Funakoshi writes that Jiin, Jitte, Chinto and Chinte were all taught by the shipwrecked Chinese sailor before he returned home. Based on that information above, we can ask some questions. 1. Were the Chinese military authorities that accompanied these vessels across pirate infested waters skilled at training men in combating pirates? I believe many would answer yes. 2. The Okinawans had formal tributary trade with China for 500 years. Should we believe that the Okinawans were skilled at thwarting pirate attacks? I believe many would answer yes. 3. Was it in the Okinawans national interest in learning the best fighting techniques for thwarting pirate attacks to their vessels. I believe many would answer yes. 4. Did the Okinawans have an opportuntity to learn current fighting methods while the Chinese ships were in port at Naha, and on occasion when their ships were docked at Fuzhou? I believe many would answer yes. Now we get to a different, but related question. Many of the histories, those from Funakoshi, especially, make references to Okinawa having no need for weapons. But that is clearly false. They had great need to defend their ships at sea with the weapons of the day (spears, primarily, but swords as well.) What can we make of this? I would argue that the histories were designed to mislead us. Funakoshi wasn't uninformed. It's true he was only ten years old when tribute missions were finally terminated by the Japanese, but this trade with China was a fundamental component of Okinawa's heritage. The Satsuma invaded Okinawa to tax them and to control their trade with China so that they could profit from it. The Okinawans maintained their privileged tributary status with China until the late 1870s. With that tribute trade came Chinese culture in the way of dress, literature, poetry, art, furniture, ceramics, and on and on. Those histories that state that Okinawans developed empty hand fighting because they could not carry weapons are telling only part of the story. The Okinawa elite still had a fundamental requirement to be able to successfully trade with China, and that meant every member of their biannual 300 strong delegations to China needed to have some competence in repelling attacks on their ships. Should they lose a ship, the people on that ship could be executed, or subjected to a brutal existence aboard a pirate vessel. They needed military techniques, armed techniques to ensure the success of these tribute missions. If you are willing to accept what I have stated above, then you also may have a simple question. If we take it as a given that the Okinawans had to have had military skill across a broad community, then the simple question is "what happened to it?" No spear arts appear to have survived. And therein lies the most interesting question. None "appear" to have survived? But is that truly the case? Which brings me to the fundamental question, one that I am surprised not more are interested in? For what purpose did Chinese military authorities, tasked with protecting their vessels from hostile takeovers at sea, teach Okinawans Kaishu kata (open hand kata)? There are millions out there who believe the only answer can be that these kind military men taught kata to enable the Okinawans to protect themselves without weapons on the rough and tumble streets of Shuri and Naha.