Bunkai genuine?

[TSDTexan]

The other thing that I happen to know, directly from the mouth of a Korean Shaolin who was raised the Dae Yeon Sa Temple from age five through age 18, (when Korean law forced him into military service.) The Dae Yeon Sa temple had sent and received monks to the Southern Sect temples. There are records of these departures and arrivals, by the scribes of Temple Headmasters.

I got the opportunity to train under him, in Tukong Moosul, for about 5 months before I had to move to Las Vegas.

 

[TSDTexan]

When the Manchus overthrew the Ming dynasty, lovalists (the Southern Shaolin amongst them) rallied to restore the Ming government - this is the reason for the popularity of the term si ming (思明), or remember the Ming. As part of the fight, even their monastic greeting changed. In the Northern Shaolin monastery, monks greeted each other by clasping their palms together, as if in prayer. In the south, monks brought their right fist toward their left palm in front of their chest (if you can't picture it, watch any kungfu movie - period or contemporary). The combination of the right fist / left palm symbolised the Chinese character for Ming.


The Qing emperor never forgave nor forget the Southern Shaolin's treasonous ways and ordered the complete destruction of the temple, with instructions that it was never to be rebuilt. The Southern Shaolin thus faded into the mists of history, and it's only been in recent years that there has been renewed interest in pinpointing its actual location.


Here are some words from people who have been there DaveB:

Fuqing's Shaolin Temple

Southern Shaolin that we visited last. The temple in Fuqing is where there are direct historical references to the Shaolin monks. Unlike the temples in Putian and Quanzhou, it is named in 12th, 15th, and 16th century publications and excavations produced Song era pottery with the Chinese characters for Shaofin (少林).

The national Cultural Relics Bureau eventually determined that there had truly been a Shaolin temple in that location.


It took me a week get around to make my way back to Songbai bus station in order to catch a bus to Hong Lu (宏路), a small town where we were going to be picked up and driven through the mountains to Fuqing Shaolin Temple. We were a lot more organised this time; I had arranged a driver, a Fuqing native, to show us around (through Mr Fu of Apple Foreign Connections, see our listings for their address and telephone number).


As we sat (and napped, for it was a 6:00 am start this time) through our three-hour bus journey, then waited a few minutes in the hot Fujian sun for our driver, Mr Wei, to appear, I began to worry that this temple would also be a letdown. Mr Fu had said more than once that this temple was rather remote, and expressed surprise that I even knew of its existence.


The physical location of Fuqing's Shaolin temple gave us a good feeling from the start. Secondly, as only the middle section of the temple has been rebuilt (according to the woman manning the gift counter, the local government does not have the money to rebuild the rest), some ancient foundations remain. They are marked and untouched (and unprotected against the ravages of time and inclement weather). I actually felt joy at seeing these ruins, whether it was a wall, support columns, or the monks' toilet block - here was history, real history, not something that had been demolished and rebuilt as a replica of the original.


This time, I was grateful that the temple grounds were practically deserted; I had the opportunity to clamber among the ruins, furiously taking snapshots using both my digital and film cameras with no one getting in the way of my viewfinder. There was even an ancient grave in the top corner - graves are of some personal interest to me, and to find one that could have been the final resting place of a real Shaolin monk? What a treasure!


It saddens me that there is a real possibility of these ruins being covered over and a brand new temple built in its place - once there is enough money. Being a big fan of history, it is my fond hope that the Fuqing local government understands the value of preserving, net replacing, these monuments, as they are an important part of China's long history. Building replicas just doesn't leave visitors with a real sense of what has been.


Fuqing Southern Shaolin Temple, Dongzhang Township, Fuqing County (福清县东张镇少林寺

 

[DaveB]

Consider the source. Official information from China....?

The monks of the northern Shaolin temple are said to have been manufactured to take advantage of the global appeal of kungfu mythology. The info about the Southern temple has been suggested is just as manufactured.

I can't confirm or deny anything, my point was only that absolute certainty about the names and events in Karate history is not really possible.

Another one, Ryu Ryu Ko, there are suspects for who he may have been, but also may have been made up....

 

[hoshin1600]

Do you also believe in Bigfoot?
Your evidence is circumstancial. You would still have to prove that monks trained in martial arts.
So here is a question, have you ever heard the word Hakka? Follow that, and a whole new reality may open up about the origins of martial arts.

 

[TSDTexan]

Consider the source. Official information from China....?

The monks of the northern Shaolin temple are said to have been manufactured to take advantage of the global appeal of kungfu mythology. The info about the Southern temple has been suggested is just as manufactured.

I can't confirm or deny anything, my point was only that absolute certainty about the names and events in Karate history is not really possible.

Another one, Ryu Ryu Ko, there are suspects for who he may have been, but also may have been made up....

I dont need "beyond a reasonable doubt", my evidentiary burden is " preponderance of evidence ". But there is enough phisical archeological evidence to hold no reasonable doubt.
Let's review what we have:

1. The oral tradition. Which inclues all the steps involved from White Crane Fist, and its mixture with types of Te,

Seeing how far back it goes and the acknowledgement of guys like G. Funakoshi and those with him that cause the name change from to 唐 T'ang 手 (Te) hand空 empty 手 (Te) hand.

2 Written documents. These are documents that place individuals in the oral tradition in real space and where/when.

3. Archeological digs that found the largest temple in China. Pottery with Shaolin written on them.

4. The testimony of other Shaolin monestaries and Temples that had contact with the Southern Sect.

5. The change of the
with a slight bow and hands pressed together, palms touching and fingers pointing upwards, thumbs close to the chest. This gesture is called Añjali Mudrā or Pranamasana. That looks like

Which was replaced with Shaolin disciples used a special hand signal to recognize sympathizers of the resistance. In Chinese, the word Ming (明) means "bright" and comprises of the characters for the sun (日) and the moon (月), the two great sources of light and brightness. The signal consisted of the right hand as a fist, symbolizing the sun, and the left hand as an open palm, symbolizing the moon. Together the fist and open hand carried the meaning of “bright,” or Ming (明).

When a person displayed the hand signal to another, he indicated two things; first, the Ming dynasty must return, and second, the person showing the hand signal was himself "bright" and an agent for justice regarding the destruction of the southern temples.

6.
The presence of modified Chinese forms in "Te". Sanchin is not in all Shaolin styles.. Sanchin was and likely still is The White Crane Fists Primary form. It was the first form taught to white crane students as a non moving then later as a moving form.... As they left intermediate level they relearned it all again.over.

Some of what I am writing came in an email last night.

 

[TSDTexan]

Do you also believe in Bigfoot?
Your evidence is circumstancial. You would still have to prove that monks trained in martial arts.
So here is a question, have you ever heard the word Hakka? Follow that, and a whole new reality may open up about the origins of martial arts.

Yes, I know about the many Hakka waves of immigration, and "guest families" that were paid by the government to relocate.

As for the monks knowing Shaolin martial arts... Before the first Shaolin temple was constructed, the mountain cave sages were about the only Shaolin predecessors who had any. After the first temple was built, the Hindi Bodidharma a Chan (zen) Buddhist from the warrior caste, cane to the first temple.

He found weak and out of shape monks who had no martial arts, but could read write and meditate.

The first Shaolin form was created to whip them into shape and teach them how to fight in self defense. Its called 18 hands, and almost every Shaolin monk knew it. It was pretty much required study.

The Hakka are actually part of the underground that were taught the arts of 5 ancestors by a handful of surviving monks who escaped a nighttime slaughter of 128 monks in a a northern Temple.

Their headmaster foresaw the 10,000 strong army that was about to come and destroy the temple, so he poisoned the monks with a sleeping potion. The army burned the temple down. The five who survived did so, because they were fasting.

They fled the north and were responsible for the uprising against the Qing. They sought the restoration of the Ming.

These were the founders of monasteries and temples in Hakka fortified towns.

 

[Xue Sheng]

1. The oral tradition. Which inclues all the steps involved from White Crane Fist, and its mixture with types of Te,

The thing about any oral history out of China, it can change depending on who you talk to. And yet another thing about Chinese history is that any study of it needs to be done with an understanding of Chinese characters and at times traditional characters.

Not saying anything you are posting is right or wrong, but if it is out of China, it may or may bot be true. I can list all sorts of reputable sources who talk about the founder of Taijiquan being Zhang Sanfeng. However look into it a bit further and you see they list him all over the place in the Chinese timeline. And even with those "rebutabel sources" most Chinese scholars today do not believe Zhang Sanfeng had much or anything to do with the creation of taijiquan..if he ever really existed at all

 

[TSDTexan]

The thing about any oral history out of China, it can change depending on who you talk to. And yet another thing about Chinese history is that any study of it needs to be done with an understanding of Chinese characters and at times traditional characters.

Not saying anything you are posting is right or wrong, but if it is out of China, it may or may bot be true. I can list all sorts of reputable sources who talk about the founder of Taijiquan being Zhang Sanfeng. However look into it a bit further and you see they list him all over the place in the Chinese timeline. And even with those "rebutabel sources" most Chinese scholars today do not believe Zhang Sanfeng had much or anything to do with the creation of taijiquan..if he ever really existed at all

Very true, which is why I say my beliefs are open minded. I am willing to change position if some offers a much stronger case for a position opposed to mine, I will after researching, weigh the two and then accept the new view. Or in some matters accept both as equally valid, and leave it to the reader or listener to do with as he or she sees best. If that subject is discussed in the future.

 

[TSDTexan]

Do you also believe in Bigfoot?
Your evidence is circumstancial. You would still have to prove that monks trained in martial arts.
So here is a question, have you ever heard the word Hakka? Follow that, and a whole new reality may open up about the origins of martial arts.

Story of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts - History of Hakka Martial Art and its relationship to Southern Chinese and Shaolin martial arts

I read this a while back like December of last year, and it is where I first learned about the Hakka.

Been reading the stuff from Salvatore Canzonieri for a long while now

 

[donald1]

In unfamiliar with your terminology; sacred cow? Real mccoy? Spinning of silkworms??

Im assuming your asking is bunkai useful?

Ive practiced bunkai for a couple years now (specifically within okinawan goju ryu). I have some understanding of the subject. I would say bunkai is good training and teaches useful techniques.

 

[TSDTexan]

Yes, I know about the many Hakka waves of immigration, and "guest families" that were paid by the government to relocate.

As for the monks knowing Shaolin martial arts... Before the first Shaolin temple was constructed, the mountain cave sages were about the only Shaolin predecessors who had any. After the first temple was built, the Hindi Bodidharma a Chan (zen) Buddhist from the warrior caste, came to the first temple.

He found weak and out of shape monks who had no martial arts, but could read write and meditate.

The first Shaolin form was created to whip them into shape and teach them how to fight in self defense. Its called 18 hands, and almost every Shaolin monk knew it. It was pretty much required study.

The Hakka are actually part of the underground that were taught the arts of 5 ancestors by a handful of surviving monks who escaped a nighttime slaughter of 128 monks in a a northern Temple.

Their headmaster foresaw the 10,000 strong army that was about to come and destroy the temple, so he poisoned the monks with a sleeping potion. The army burned the temple down. The five who survived did so, because they were fasting.

They fled the north and were responsible for the uprising against the Qing. They sought the restoration of the Ming.

These were the founders of monasteries and temples in Hakka fortified towns.

the mountain cave sages were about the only Shaolin predecessors who had any.

This statement is not to mean that there were no martial arts practioners, who became Shaolin. Or anything of the like, but that at the founding of the first temple, there and then there were none numbered among the Shaolin.

It is recorded that Bohdidarma gave them their martial arts.

There were plenty of martial arts in China at that point.

While this is what I believe: I will offer a rebuttal against my belief:

The Shaolin monk's martial art was an art of body guards, temple guards, military generals, and ex-soldiers.

By 500 AD, Shaolin monks created a set of loose techniques and staff fighting methods (these are based upon sword fighting techniques from Tong Bei system, which was the main one practiced by the military).

This was also developed from an internal and external style that was based on the
I Chin Ching Qigong (muscle/tendon changing),
the Hsi Sui Ching (Bone Marrow/Brain Washing)
Qigong, and the Shi BaLuo Han exercises (18 Luohan
Forms) Qigong, coupled with self defense techniques that were prevalent among the professional martial artists of the time, such as Shuai Chiao, and the various other military quan fa.

This is the case because of who the earliest inhabitants of the Shaolin Temple were, besides monks doing strictly religious study there.

The official position of the Shaolin Temple and Chinese Government historians today is that the original monks were retired military men and robber barons looking to live out the remainder of their lives in a tolerant setting with others of their kind.

In other words, the original Shaolin Temple possessed martial arts experience from its inception. In any case, it is concluded that Buddhidharma / Damo is not the founder of Shaolin martial arts.

 

[TSDTexan]

In unfamiliar with your terminology; sacred cow? Real mccoy? Spinning of silkworms??

Im assuming your asking is bunkai useful?

Ive practiced bunkai for a couple years now (specifically within okinawan goju ryu). I have some understanding of the subject. I would say bunkai is good training and teaches useful techniques.

What is Karate? Kihon, Kata, and Kumite. Take away any one of these, and it is not Karate. The are many of the old Masters who maintained Kata, and the Bunkai process are the heart and soul of Karate.

My initial questions, were asked with the intent of finding out ... How do you know the hidden application Oyo is the correct
Interpretation?

My asking was crude and imprecise. As the dialog progressed I was better able to reframe the question.

Perhaps I should have asked this question instead "Is there a single correct Oyo?" for each step in a kata... In an objective sense. If so, why not write it down?

If not, then why?
It it because the Oyo is it purely subjective in the choice of the person doing Bunkai?

Why is their so much confusion and disagreement among karateka about the subject of bunkai?

 

[donald1]

Personally I never heard the term "oyo"

Techniques in a kata can be taken and used in different ways.(not just one way)

Writing it down may help but one thing ive always heard the instructor say "pay close attention to detail" he would say that as performing techniques and giving tips, and occasionally showing some advanced moves from the techniques

I dont know what the disagreement is about. Personally I havnt heard any discussed

Maybe someone more knoledgable nay shine some light on this

 

[TSDTexan]

Personally I never heard the term "oyo"

Techniques in a kata can be taken and used in different ways.(not just one way)

Writing it down may help but one thing ive always heard the instructor say "pay close attention to detail" he would say that as performing techniques and giving tips, and occasionally showing some advanced moves from the techniques

I dont know what the disagreement is about. Personally I havnt heard any discussed

Maybe someone more knoledgable nay shine some light on this

Donald1, I found this today. Since you are Gojo-Ryu, You will really appreciate the section on Kanryo Higaonna, and the visit to the Honbu central dojo where they train "old school" and train under Morio Higaonna.

This video is pretty amazing actually. You get to see a Picture of either Ryo Ko Ko or the Other Named Guy who trained Higaonna in China.

I wish I could train at the Go-Jo Honbu for just one year. Or 10.

 

[TSDTexan]

Found this today, as well. apparently, Hiagonna has disclosed the applications of Go-Jo Kata-Bunkai, in a dvd series.
I suspect I have found "Authentic Bunkai" without having to go to Okinawa.

For 400.00 dollars plus shipping, I can have his:

Encyclopedia of Goju Ryu by Morio Higaonna
This ten part professionally produced DVD series is of extreme value to Goju Ryu practitioners, being the only source of this information on the KATA and their BUNKAI (applications) at this level.

Filmed in a beautiful Japanese dojo, the demonstrations performed by Morio Higaonna Sensei - widely regarded as the greatest living Goju Ryu Master - and the level of skill he exhibits is simply breath-taking, and results from intense daily training for more than fifty years under the direction of the late An'ichi Miyagi, a senior student of the founder of Goju Ryu, Chojun Miyagi Sensei.
Here is a link
IOGKF Videos

 

[Tez3]

I suspect I have found "Authentic Bunkai" without having to go to Okinawa.

I suspect your ideas about Bunkai are somewhat different from the rest of the worlds in that you think there's only one Bunkai for each kata and that only someone from Okinawa can reveal this 'secret' to you when the truth is that it's there for you to discover if you want to do the work, if you are feeling lazy then there's plenty of books, videos and articles about Bunkai out there, if it's a 'secret' it's a very open one.

 

[TSDTexan]

I suspect your ideas about Bunkai are somewhat different from the rest of the worlds in that you think there's only one Bunkai for each kata and that only someone from Okinawa can reveal this 'secret' to you when the truth is that it's there for you to discover if you want to do the work, if you are feeling lazy then there's plenty of books, videos and articles about Bunkai out there, if it's a 'secret' it's a very open one.

I was being tounge-in-cheek.

 

[Chris Parker]

Er… this might not be one of my short posts…

Chris, ( sorry, this is a slight detour from thread) what about Wado Ryu? I know the history of it of course but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about the Japanese way of doing things to know about 'Ryu' 'Kan' etc and what makes what! Cheers.

Firstly, Tez… yeah, it's not really a particularly simple thing to describe… but, in essence, a kan refers to a "hall", or, in a larger sense, an organisation. A ryu, on the other hand, is a coherent body of knowledge, self-referencing and self-reinforcing, structured from the ground up with a single ideal. Of course, the question there is "how does that not describe Shotokan?" And the answer, honestly, is because it doesn't. That's not the way Shotokan was designed, set up, structured, or anything else. It was, really, designed as a generic expression of what was known as karate (or to-te, or simply te… or, in Okinawa's dialect, to-ti or ti), rather than it's own version (specific).

Wado Ryu, on the other hand, is a Ryu (for the first clue in both cases, look to the name…). Wado Ryu was a synthesised and specific approach to karate developed by Otsuka Sensei, based on his training under a couple of karate teachers (including Funakoshi) and his training in Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu. By using the principles and structure of Shindo Yoshin Ryu, as well as the lessons of karate, as well as his own understanding, Otsuka formulated a single approach to combative arts, structured and self-reinforcing (in other words, none of it is simply "tacked on" from other areas/systems). Now, it really should be emphasised that neither approach is "better" than the other… neither is "right" or "wrong"… the Bujinkan, for instance, isn't a ryu either (nor does it claim to be), although it does contain various ryu-ha. Instead, the Bujinkan is an organisation which teaches the art of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu… a homogenised, in a way generic approach to a broad skill set based in taijutsu (body skills). Training in Budo Taijutsu is more along the lines of Shotokan's (well, Funakoshi's) approach to karate… taking the various source materials to come up with a single, in ways simplified, in other ways generalised, but overall more consistent method of studying the essential skills.

So, what's the distinction, and why is it important? Well, the distinction is in the "flavour" of the training… and it's not necessarily that important… unless it is. What is important is being able to recognise what something is, and being able to classify/discuss it properly.

While perhaps each and every statement that you wrote is quite possibly true (I will be frank and say I dont know for certain), it still doesn't stop many, many people from calling it that nonetheless.

Even while being a misnomer.

• Ryū (school), a school of thought or discipline (for example a fighting school).
• Kan is a hall or building or academy, like Kwan in Korean.

"Many, many people"?? Really? Aside from yourself, and the single website you cited (a group founded in 2004…), I've never come across it from anyone claiming anything close to familiarity with the subject… oh, and your definitions are rather lacking, and really only applicable at a very base level… a lot of the real nuance and therefore meaning (contextually) is missing… which, when all's said and done, is where the real definition is found.

The koala “bear,” which is actually a marsupial and not a bear.

The Panda bear isn't a bear either, but a member of the racoon family (the largest one)

Another is “German” chocolate cake, a cake that didn’t originate in Germany but was created in America by a man with the last name “German.”

Perhaps the biggest, history-changing misnomer was when Christopher Columbus dubbed American natives “Indians” because he mistakenly thought he was in India.

The sago palm (Cycas revolute), a common houseplant, is actually not a palm at all but a type of plant known as a cycad. This inaccuracy irks botanists and horticulturists everywhere,

Anyone who’s taken geometry knows Pythagoras’s famous theorem relating the sides of a right triangle: A2 + B2 = C2. Most of us presume Pythagoras was the first to recognize this truth, since the theorem bears his name. Actually, the Babylonians used the so-called Pythagorean Theorem some 1,000 years before Pythagoras was born. They even wrote it down, on a tablet now known as Plimpton 322.

So, I may understand that it is a misnomer. But I seriously doubt you are going to get others to stop calling it that, anymore than you would be able to get folks to stop calling the panda a bear. And correcting some folks runs a great risk of coming across as pedantic.

Look, I get the point you're trying to make, but you're simply spouting a lot of completely irrelevant "facts" here… belabouring a point that, honestly, wasn't that correct to begin with.

As I understand it, and is found in the wiki's.

Gichin Funakoshi had trained in both of the popular styles of Okinawan karate of the time: Shōrei-ryū and Shōrin-ryū.

After years of study in both styles, Funakoshi created a simpler system that combined the ideals of the two. He never named this system, however, always referring to it simply as "karate." Open Hand.

Er… no. Until 1935, Funakoshi's books and texts used the kanji 唐手… meaning "China (T'ang Dynasty) Hand". This is seen on Karate Jutsu (1925), as well as the earlier To-de Ryukyu Kenpo. In 1935, Karate-Do Kyohan was his first book to use the kanji 空手, meaning "Empty Hand".

Having said that, it is my assertion that Shotokan Ryu literally would be Hall of Pine Waves School.

Er… no. Again, we'd need to get into the context, but it'd more realistically be like "the style of this training hall, headed by Shoto" (Funakoshi's pen name… the "waving pines" thing doesn't really have any relevance to the system, the way Wado Ryu's or Goju Ryu's name does). In that sense, it's not the way ryu is used or applied… as it's, once again, not a ryu.

In 1924, Funakoshi adopted the Kyū / Dan rank system and the uniform (keikogi) developed by Kano Jigoro, the founder of judo.

This system uses colored belts (obi) to indicate rank. Originally, karate had only three belt colors: white, brown, and black (with ranks within each). The original belt system, still used by many Shotokan schools, is:

8th rising to 4th kyū: white
3rd rising to 1st kyū: brown
1st and higher dan: black

Funakoshi also wrote: "The ultimate aim of Karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the character of the participant.

And… all of that had relevance to what, exactly?

I usually will ask when I share what I have learned so far, "Is this an accurate history?" because I actually like hearing the responses, those responses cause me to go back to researching the claimed inaccuracies. I have been corrected many, many, many times. and for that I am thankful.

Corrections are like a roll on the mats.

Okay, then. Shotokan is not, nor has ever been called, Shotokan Ryu.

I have said on occasion that the road for a black belt in BJJ probably has 30,000 or 40,000 tapouts given, and 90,000 tapouts received. You probably going to get tapped 3 times (or more) for every one time you tap someone else.
Based on the popular conception that a BB in BJJ is 3,000 to 10,000 hours of mat time.

And, again, that has relevance to what, exactly?

Okinawan Martial Arts History Kyushiki-Ryu Kempo-Jutsu is a really good read.

Yeah… a number of fairly major issues with that article, you know… mistakes in language and translation, among some other errors… I wouldn't put too much stock in it myself. If you need any real confirmation of how to take it… there's no other record of a "Kyushiki Ryu Kempo Jutsu" that I can find (it's a modern, Western created system), the instructor page lists a "Society of Shihan", and various Western "Soke"… never a good sign… to read between the lines, we don't fraud bust here, so I'm not saying what it actually means…

I dont need "beyond a reasonable doubt", my evidentiary burden is " preponderance of evidence ". But there is enough phisical archeological evidence to hold no reasonable doubt.

Er…

Let's review what we have:

Sure...

1. The oral tradition. Which inclues all the steps involved from White Crane Fist, and its mixture with types of Te,

Seeing how far back it goes and the acknowledgement of guys like G. Funakoshi and those with him that cause the name change from to 唐 T'ang 手 (Te) hand空 empty 手 (Te) hand.

You know, in my systems, there are oral traditions that state that the art was handed down in a dream from the gods… or that the founder was never beaten… combined with another system that states that it's founder is the only one to beat the former one (the unbeaten one)… or that the founder lived to be over a century old in the 15th Century… and a large range of other things that are, simply, not verifiable outside of the oral traditions themselves.

2 Written documents. These are documents that place individuals in the oral tradition in real space and where/when.

Again, there are written accounts naming various figures in classical Japanese arts that couldn't possibly be there, or couldn't be involved in the history of so many arts, or are said to have co-existed with peoples known to have lived decades, or centuries apart.

The thing to remember with both oral and written sources is that they're often retroactively created… or doctored to include aspects to make the art seem more credible or give them greater prestige.

3. Archeological digs that found the largest temple in China. Pottery with Shaolin written on them.

This, I'd need to see.

4. The testimony of other Shaolin monestaries and Temples that had contact with the Southern Sect.

Testimony that said what? That there was a temple? This still isn't anything to do with a connection to Okinawan/Ryu-Kyu Kempo.

5. The change of the
with a slight bow and hands pressed together, palms touching and fingers pointing upwards, thumbs close to the chest. This gesture is called Añjali Mudrā or Pranamasana. That looks like

View attachment 19413

Which was replaced with Shaolin disciples used a special hand signal to recognize sympathizers of the resistance. In Chinese, the word Ming (明) means "bright" and comprises of the characters for the sun (日) and the moon (月), the two great sources of light and brightness. The signal consisted of the right hand as a fist, symbolizing the sun, and the left hand as an open palm, symbolizing the moon. Together the fist and open hand carried the meaning of “bright,” or Ming (明).

When a person displayed the hand signal to another, he indicated two things; first, the Ming dynasty must return, and second, the person showing the hand signal was himself "bright" and an agent for justice regarding the destruction of the southern temples.

View attachment 19414

Do you want to go through the various mudra forms that have existed throughout Asia? The way they all stem from India and Buddhist (as well as early Yogic) teachings? What I'm saying is that you're noting something that was found throughout Asia at the time, and are making connections where they don't necessarily exist. There's a legal term, post hoc ergo propter hoc (after it, therefore because of it)… in essence, it's the false recognition of a cause and effect relationship where it doesn't exist.

6.
The presence of modified Chinese forms in "Te". Sanchin is not in all Shaolin styles.. Sanchin was and likely still is The White Crane Fists Primary form. It was the first form taught to white crane students as a non moving then later as a moving form.... As they left intermediate level they relearned it all again.over.

Some of what I am writing came in an email last night.

From?

the mountain cave sages were about the only Shaolin predecessors who had any.

This statement is not to mean that there were no martial arts practioners, who became Shaolin. Or anything of the like, but that at the founding of the first temple, there and then there were none numbered among the Shaolin.

It is recorded that Bohdidarma gave them their martial arts.

There were plenty of martial arts in China at that point.

While this is what I believe: I will offer a rebuttal against my belief:

The Shaolin monk's martial art was an art of body guards, temple guards, military generals, and ex-soldiers.

By 500 AD, Shaolin monks created a set of loose techniques and staff fighting methods (these are based upon sword fighting techniques from Tong Bei system, which was the main one practiced by the military).

This was also developed from an internal and external style that was based on the
I Chin Ching Qigong (muscle/tendon changing),
the Hsi Sui Ching (Bone Marrow/Brain Washing)
Qigong, and the Shi BaLuo Han exercises (18 Luohan
Forms) Qigong, coupled with self defense techniques that were prevalent among the professional martial artists of the time, such as Shuai Chiao, and the various other military quan fa.

This is the case because of who the earliest inhabitants of the Shaolin Temple were, besides monks doing strictly religious study there.

The official position of the Shaolin Temple and Chinese Government historians today is that the original monks were retired military men and robber barons looking to live out the remainder of their lives in a tolerant setting with others of their kind.

In other words, the original Shaolin Temple possessed martial arts experience from its inception. In any case, it is concluded that Buddhidharma / Damo is not the founder of Shaolin martial arts.

Okay… without going through all of this, the story of Boddhidharma giving the monks martial arts is rather apocryphal… it's believed that he really only gave them a series of exercises (similar to early Yoga) to aid in their endurance for meditation primarily. Nothing to do with martial arts at all. I've never come across anything suggesting that the monks were "retired military men and robber barons", for the record…

Mind you, I'm still wondering what any of this has to do with the actual topic…

What is Karate? Kihon, Kata, and Kumite. Take away any one of these, and it is not Karate. The are many of the old Masters who maintained Kata, and the Bunkai process are the heart and soul of Karate.

I'd largely agree with that… I'd say that they are core, or central components, though, and what makes karate itself is expressed through such methods, but what it is is goes a fair way beyond that.

My initial questions, were asked with the intent of finding out ... How do you know the hidden application Oyo is the correct
Interpretation?

That's easy. It works.

My asking was crude and imprecise. As the dialog progressed I was better able to reframe the question.

Perhaps I should have asked this question instead "Is there a single correct Oyo?" for each step in a kata... In an objective sense. If so, why not write it down?

Okay, a two parter… no, there is no single correct oyo. Oyo is a practical application… provided what you're doing is a practical application, it's a correct oyo… "hidden" or not. Secondly, why not write it down? Because you will invariably miss things, which will lead to gaps in understanding. By writing down precise details, you're forced to omit others… these things aren't learnt by writing or reading. Ideally, written transmissions are more like road maps… giving a way to find your way, not specific directions themselves.

If not, then why?
It it because the Oyo is it purely subjective in the choice of the person doing Bunkai?

No, not really the choice of the person… but in a large way, it is based on the personal explorations of the individual. The difference between exploration and choice is an important one…

Why is their so much confusion and disagreement among karateka about the subject of bunkai?

As I said earlier, it's because bunkai, and what it actually means (contextually) is potentially the most misunderstood concept in martial arts today. Translation is difficult enough, but the cultural implications can only confuse matters more.

 

[TSDTexan]

Er… this might not be one of my short posts…



Firstly, Tez… yeah, it's not really a particularly simple thing to describe… but, in essence, a kan refers to a "hall", or, in a larger sense, an organisation. A ryu, on the other hand, is a coherent body of knowledge, self-referencing and self-reinforcing, structured from the ground up with a single ideal. Of course, the question there is "how does that not describe Shotokan?" And the answer, honestly, is because it doesn't. That's not the way Shotokan was designed, set up, structured, or anything else. It was, really, designed as a generic expression of what was known as karate (or to-te, or simply te… or, in Okinawa's dialect, to-ti or ti), rather than it's own version (specific).

Wado Ryu, on the other hand, is a Ryu (for the first clue in both cases, look to the name…). Wado Ryu was a synthesised and specific approach to karate developed by Otsuka Sensei, based on his training under a couple of karate teachers (including Funakoshi) and his training in Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu. By using the principles and structure of Shindo Yoshin Ryu, as well as the lessons of karate, as well as his own understanding, Otsuka formulated a single approach to combative arts, structured and self-reinforcing (in other words, none of it is simply "tacked on" from other areas/systems). Now, it really should be emphasised that neither approach is "better" than the other… neither is "right" or "wrong"… the Bujinkan, for instance, isn't a ryu either (nor does it claim to be), although it does contain various ryu-ha. Instead, the Bujinkan is an organisation which teaches the art of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu… a homogenised, in a way generic approach to a broad skill set based in taijutsu (body skills). Training in Budo Taijutsu is more along the lines of Shotokan's (well, Funakoshi's) approach to karate… taking the various source materials to come up with a single, in ways simplified, in other ways generalised, but overall more consistent method of studying the essential skills.

So, what's the distinction, and why is it important? Well, the distinction is in the "flavour" of the training… and it's not necessarily that important… unless it is. What is important is being able to recognise what something is, and being able to classify/discuss it properly.



"Many, many people"?? Really? Aside from yourself, and the single website you cited (a group founded in 2004…), I've never come across it from anyone claiming anything close to familiarity with the subject… oh, and your definitions are rather lacking, and really only applicable at a very base level… a lot of the real nuance and therefore meaning (contextually) is missing… which, when all's said and done, is where the real definition is found.



Look, I get the point you're trying to make, but you're simply spouting a lot of completely irrelevant "facts" here… belabouring a point that, honestly, wasn't that correct to begin with.



Er… no. Until 1935, Funakoshi's books and texts used the kanji 唐手… meaning "China (T'ang Dynasty) Hand". This is seen on Karate Jutsu (1925), as well as the earlier To-de Ryukyu Kenpo. In 1935, Karate-Do Kyohan was his first book to use the kanji 空手, meaning "Empty Hand".



Er… no. Again, we'd need to get into the context, but it'd more realistically be like "the style of this training hall, headed by Shoto" (Funakoshi's pen name… the "waving pines" thing doesn't really have any relevance to the system, the way Wado Ryu's or Goju Ryu's name does). In that sense, it's not the way ryu is used or applied… as it's, once again, not a ryu.



And… all of that had relevance to what, exactly?



Okay, then. Shotokan is not, nor has ever been called, Shotokan Ryu.



And, again, that has relevance to what, exactly?



Yeah… a number of fairly major issues with that article, you know… mistakes in language and translation, among some other errors… I wouldn't put too much stock in it myself. If you need any real confirmation of how to take it… there's no other record of a "Kyushiki Ryu Kempo Jutsu" that I can find (it's a modern, Western created system), the instructor page lists a "Society of Shihan", and various Western "Soke"… never a good sign… to read between the lines, we don't fraud bust here, so I'm not saying what it actually means…



Er…



Sure...



You know, in my systems, there are oral traditions that state that the art was handed down in a dream from the gods… or that the founder was never beaten… combined with another system that states that it's founder is the only one to beat the former one (the unbeaten one)… or that the founder lived to be over a century old in the 15th Century… and a large range of other things that are, simply, not verifiable outside of the oral traditions themselves.



Again, there are written accounts naming various figures in classical Japanese arts that couldn't possibly be there, or couldn't be involved in the history of so many arts, or are said to have co-existed with peoples known to have lived decades, or centuries apart.

The thing to remember with both oral and written sources is that they're often retroactively created… or doctored to include aspects to make the art seem more credible or give them greater prestige.



This, I'd need to see.



Testimony that said what? That there was a temple? This still isn't anything to do with a connection to Okinawan/Ryu-Kyu Kempo.



Do you want to go through the various mudra forms that have existed throughout Asia? The way they all stem from India and Buddhist (as well as early Yogic) teachings? What I'm saying is that you're noting something that was found throughout Asia at the time, and are making connections where they don't necessarily exist. There's a legal term, post hoc ergo propter hoc (after it, therefore because of it)… in essence, it's the false recognition of a cause and effect relationship where it doesn't exist.



From?



Okay… without going through all of this, the story of Boddhidharma giving the monks martial arts is rather apocryphal… it's believed that he really only gave them a series of exercises (similar to early Yoga) to aid in their endurance for meditation primarily. Nothing to do with martial arts at all. I've never come across anything suggesting that the monks were "retired military men and robber barons", for the record…

Mind you, I'm still wondering what any of this has to do with the actual topic…



I'd largely agree with that… I'd say that they are core, or central components, though, and what makes karate itself is expressed through such methods, but what it is is goes a fair way beyond that.



That's easy. It works.



Okay, a two parter… no, there is no single correct oyo. Oyo is a practical application… provided what you're doing is a practical application, it's a correct oyo… "hidden" or not. Secondly, why not write it down? Because you will invariably miss things, which will lead to gaps in understanding. By writing down precise details, you're forced to omit others… these things aren't learnt by writing or reading. Ideally, written transmissions are more like road maps… giving a way to find your way, not specific directions themselves.



No, not really the choice of the person… but in a large way, it is based on the personal explorations of the individual. The difference between exploration and choice is an important one…



As I said earlier, it's because bunkai, and what it actually means (contextually) is potentially the most misunderstood concept in martial arts today. Translation is difficult enough, but the cultural implications can only confuse matters more.

Great answers, I like.

 

[Tez3]

Thank you Chris, to be honest I tend only to be interested in training the techniques, kata and Bunkai rather than any history beyond who the founder is and how he came to 'invent/found' Wado Ryu. The history of martial arts in detail doesn't interest me as much as learning techniques. I know many are really bothered and worry about lineage but in the UK at least it tends not to be such a big part of martial arts. I think if the techniques work and do what they're supposed to we are happy, as to whether martial arts comes from India, China or Okinawa/Japan I'm not sure we are that bothered other than it makes a nice story. This is why I suppose the idea of secret techniques only told to the 'faithful' or lost in the mists of time are fairly amusing when many of us are pragmatic karateka who work on kata and bunkai ourselves and with others like Iain Abernethy.
This isn't to dismiss those who are interested in the history though, each to their own. but really the country martial arts 'originated in' pales into insignificance compared to the excitement of making a technique work for you.