Bunkai genuine?

[hoshin1600]

I now ask you a question.
Is any of this history in error?

i am not sure how to respond to your post. i believe your last post is meant as a history lesson to make a point. to answer your question directly yes there are some things that are not quite right but i dont think they are important enough to the topic at hand. while i made a few comments on your prior posts, my main concern was not understanding your post to begin with and this one didnt help me understand any more. im sorry.

you typed this in both posts "Te" -> Tang development cycle. " and this " "Te" -> "Tong" development or hybrid." im sorry i am not understanding the intent and meaning of what you are trying to say. you also posted "In Japan the "Te" -> Tang = new "Te" development cycle froze"
what is a development cycle, what froze and what is the meaning of the -> sign???

my only other reply to you was about this

The Okinawan Masters would send their top students to China after about six years of training in the Okinawan system

notice you use the word "students" with and S ....this sentence to me (and maybe it just me and im wrong here) has the meaning that it was a common practice for all "the Okinawan masters" to teach their students for a period on 6 years then send them to China to study more.
if this was your intent in what you wrote then i disagree.. on the other hand many Okinawans did go to China, and did learn there. its common knowledge that they did. including Matsumura Sokon.
Did you mean that the Okinawan's studied with the Chinese? or did you intend your statement to only be about Matsumura? i read is as it reads and interperted it as it reads.

 

[TSDTexan]

i am not sure how to respond to your post. i believe your last post is meant as a history lesson to make a point. to answer your question directly yes there are some things that are not quite right but i dont think they are important enough to the topic at hand. while i made a few comments on your prior posts, my main concern was not understanding your post to begin with and this one didnt help me understand any more. im sorry.

you typed this in both posts "Te" -> Tang development cycle. " and this " "Te" -> "Tong" development or hybrid." im sorry i am not understanding the intent and meaning of what you are trying to say. you also posted "In Japan the "Te" -> Tang = new "Te" development cycle froze"
what is a development cycle, what froze and what is the meaning of the -> sign???

my only other reply to you was about this

notice you use the word "students" with and S ....this sentence to me (and maybe it just me and im wrong here) has the meaning that it was a common practice for all "the Okinawan masters" to teach their students for a period on 6 years then send them to China to study more.
if this was your intent in what you wrote then i disagree.. on the other hand many Okinawans did go to China, and did learn there. its common knowledge that they did. including Matsumura Sokon.
Did you mean that the Okinawan's studied with the Chinese? or did you intend your statement to only be about Matsumura? i read is as it reads and interperted it as it reads.

Ok.
The -> shows where it started, and what it collided (for lack of a better term) the -> means Vector. The art of "te" headed towards a union with a type of "Chinese Hand". [Hence the Tang as in T'ang Dynasty or generally "China".] leading to a new "te".

I didn't mean to imply all students were sent to China, please forgive me. I meant a few Masters sent an occasional top student to China. This happened more then once, therefore I referred to them as in the plural.


Ok so lets return to some more history.

In the 7th century, Chinese martial arts were introduced to Okinawa through Taoist and Buddhist monks. These styles were practiced in Okinawa and developed into "Te" (Hand) over several centuries.

The Ryūkyūan monk Takahara Pēchin had a type of "Te" that he taught to Sakukawa Kanga.

Lets for the moment, call it Takahara-Te. [which was a synthesis of te (Shuri-te and Tomari-te) ]

Sakukawa went to China and then learned a Shaolin Ch'uan Fa under the Chinese military attache Kushanku. (Who lived briefly in Okinawa)

Takarara-Te (Shuri-te) + White Crane Fist Southern Shaolin Ch'uan Fa = The foundation from which Tang-Te, or China-Hand, or Tang Soo springs. Called Tode or Tudi.

Matsumura Sōkon (1809–1899) went on to develop his master’s style and Shaolin (Chinese 少林) styles Matsumura's style would later become the Shōrin-ryū style.


Kushanku,is also known by his Chinese name Kong Su Kung. (his name was written as Guan Kui, Kushanku, Kouh-Shang-Kouh and Ko Sokun )
He is credited with the introduction of the Kanku kata came to Okinawa in 1756.
It is said that Kushanku learned the art of ch’uan Fa in China from a Shaolin Monk.

What he learned was White Crane Fist Style (Chinese: 白鶴拳) is a Southern Chinese martial art which originated in Fujian (福建) Province in the city of Qanzhou.

Fāng Qīniáng is by tradition the founder of this White Crane Fist style, that was passed back to the Shaolin Monks.

This was a city where the part of the Southern Sect of Shaolin had a temple (until it was burned down, later to be rebuilt), This Southern sect had formed during the Jin and Tang Eras.

Hence, this is why we say "Tang".

 

[Chris Parker]

Usually Chris your spot on but you missed on this one. while yeah i get what your saying in general terms but ALL Okinawan systems and styles are called ryu. whether or not it is technically correct would be another topic but at some point the Okinawan styles have taken on the ryu designation. Uechi-ryu, Goju -ryu, Shito-ryu, Kobo-ryu, shorin-ryu, Matubayashi-ryu......yeah shotokan ryu sounds a little weird and i have never heard it used before myself but i dont see why you would use it for every other karate style and not shotokan.

Ha, yeah… no. Shotokan is not a Ryu. At all. It wasn't designed as one, it wasn't formulated as one, it wasn't presented and passed on as one, it wasn't named as one, and simply isn't one. I mean… I can point out that Shotokan isn't an Okinawan (specific) style of karate… realistically, it's a homogenised, generic form of karate based on a number of systems that Funakoshi introduced to Japan… and the name was simply for the dojo itself. I can point out that it's not alone in that either (Kyokushinkai and Goju Kai being another couple of examples)… but, in the end, it's possibly sufficient to point out that it's not a ryu… it's a kan. Hence the name. If it was a ryu, it'd be Shoto-Ryu.

 

[Tez3]

Chris, ( sorry, this is a slight detour from thread) what about Wado Ryu? I know the history of it of course but I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about the Japanese way of doing things to know about 'Ryu' 'Kan' etc and what makes what! Cheers.

 

[TSDTexan]

Ha, yeah… no. Shotokan is not a Ryu. At all. It wasn't designed as one, it wasn't formulated as one, it wasn't presented and passed on as one, it wasn't named as one, and simply isn't one. I mean… I can point out that Shotokan isn't an Okinawan (specific) style of karate… realistically, it's a homogenised, generic form of karate based on a number of systems that Funakoshi introduced to Japan… and the name was simply for the dojo itself. I can point out that it's not alone in that either (Kyokushinkai and Goju Kai being another couple of examples)… but, in the end, it's possibly sufficient to point out that it's not a ryu… it's a kan. Hence the name. If it was a ryu, it'd be Shoto-Ryu.

While perhaps each and every statement that you wrote is quite possibly true (I will be frank and say I dont know for certain), it still doesn't stop many, many people from calling it that nonetheless.

Even while being a misnomer.

• Ryū (school), a school of thought or discipline (for example a fighting school).
• Kan is a hall or building or academy, like Kwan in Korean.

The koala “bear,” which is actually a marsupial and not a bear.

The Panda bear isn't a bear either, but a member of the racoon family (the largest one)

Another is “German” chocolate cake, a cake that didn’t originate in Germany but was created in America by a man with the last name “German.”

Perhaps the biggest, history-changing misnomer was when Christopher Columbus dubbed American natives “Indians” because he mistakenly thought he was in India.

The sago palm (Cycas revolute), a common houseplant, is actually not a palm at all but a type of plant known as a cycad. This inaccuracy irks botanists and horticulturists everywhere,

Anyone who’s taken geometry knows Pythagoras’s famous theorem relating the sides of a right triangle: A2 + B2 = C2. Most of us presume Pythagoras was the first to recognize this truth, since the theorem bears his name. Actually, the Babylonians used the so-called Pythagorean Theorem some 1,000 years before Pythagoras was born. They even wrote it down, on a tablet now known as Plimpton 322.

So, I may understand that it is a misnomer. But I seriously doubt you are going to get others to stop calling it that, anymore than you would be able to get folks to stop calling the panda a bear. And correcting some folks runs a great risk of coming across as pedantic.

As I understand it, and is found in the wiki's.

Gichin Funakoshi had trained in both of the popular styles of Okinawan karate of the time: Shōrei-ryū and Shōrin-ryū.

After years of study in both styles, Funakoshi created a simpler system that combined the ideals of the two. He never named this system, however, always referring to it simply as "karate." Open Hand.

Having said that, it is my assertion that Shotokan Ryu literally would be Hall of Pine Waves School.

In 1924, Funakoshi adopted the Kyū / Dan rank system and the uniform (keikogi) developed by Kano Jigoro, the founder of judo.

This system uses colored belts (obi) to indicate rank. Originally, karate had only three belt colors: white, brown, and black (with ranks within each). The original belt system, still used by many Shotokan schools, is:

8th rising to 4th kyū: white
3rd rising to 1st kyū: brown
1st and higher dan: black

Funakoshi also wrote: "The ultimate aim of Karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the character of the participant.

 

[DaveB]

Ok.
The -> shows where it started, and what it collided (for lack of a better term) the -> means Vector. The art of "te" headed towards a union with a type of "Chinese Hand". [Hence the Tang as in T'ang Dynasty or generally "China".] leading to a new "te".

I didn't mean to imply all students were sent to China, please forgive me. I meant a few Masters sent an occasional top student to China. This happened more then once, therefore I referred to them as in the plural.


Ok so lets return to some more history.

In the 7th century, Chinese martial arts were introduced to Okinawa through Taoist and Buddhist monks. These styles were practiced in Okinawa and developed into "Te" (Hand) over several centuries.

The Ryūkyūan monk Takahara Pēchin had a type of "Te" that he taught to Sakukawa Kanga.

Lets for the moment, call it Takahara-Te. [which was a synthesis of te (Shuri-te and Tomari-te) ]

Sakukawa went to China and then learned a Shaolin Ch'uan Fa under the Chinese military attache Kushanku. (Who lived briefly in Okinawa)

Takarara-Te (Shuri-te) + White Crane Fist Southern Shaolin Ch'uan Fa = The foundation from which Tang-Te, or China-Hand, or Tang Soo springs. Called Tode or Tudi.

Matsumura Sōkon (1809–1899) went on to develop his master’s style and Shaolin (Chinese 少林) styles Matsumura's style would later become the Shōrin-ryū style.


Kushanku,is also known by his Chinese name Kong Su Kung. (his name was written as Guan Kui, Kushanku, Kouh-Shang-Kouh and Ko Sokun )
He is credited with the introduction of the Kanku kata came to Okinawa in 1756.
It is said that Kushanku learned the art of ch’uan Fa in China from a Shaolin Monk.

What he learned was White Crane Fist Style (Chinese: 白鶴拳) is a Southern Chinese martial art which originated in Fujian (福建) Province in the city of Qanzhou.

Fāng Qīniáng is by tradition the founder of this White Crane Fist style, that was passed back to the Shaolin Monks.

This was a city where the part of the Southern Sect of Shaolin had a temple (until it was burned down, later to be rebuilt), This Southern sect had formed during the Jin and Tang Eras.

Hence, this is why we say "Tang".

TSDTexan,

I for one have heard most of what you have written above in one form or another before, but I don't think that the difinitive way in which you present it is quite correct.

The impression I had was that there was waaaaaay more grey obscure patches across Karate's history. That there were many many other people involved who we simply don't remember today because they were unlucky in terms of karate's proliferation.

Some ideas, like the notion that te came from chinese monks, are new to me: I always understood te as being purely indigenous.
I don't think Higaonna was the founder of Naha te, largely because naha-te wasn't one art, but a generic term for the karate of people from Naha. Also I know that Itosu's first master was a naha-te man. He would have been of the same generation as Higaonna.

All of what you've written comes across in this same way to me: taking things we know are true and making them the whole story, or adding details that I don't recognise at all.

Please don't take this as a disagreement; I am no historian, just a keen student. Your view of things may be spot on, but there's nothing I've read before (with the exception of some of McCarthy's work) that comes across with certainty and clarity about the broader chain of events, as if we have an authenticated written history. And I'm pretty sure we don't have one of those.

 

[TSDTexan]

TSDTexan,

I for one have heard most of what you have written above in one form or another before, but I don't think that the difinitive way in which you present it is quite correct.

The impression I had was that there was waaaaaay more grey obscure patches across Karate's history. That there were many many other people involved who we simply don't remember today because they were unlucky in terms of karate's proliferation.

Some ideas, like the notion that te came from chinese monks, are new to me: I always understood te as being purely indigenous.
I don't think Higaonna was the founder of Naha te, largely because naha-te wasn't one art, but a generic term for the karate of people from Naha. Also I know that Itosu's first master was a naha-te man. He would have been of the same generation as Higaonna.

All of what you've written comes across in this same way to me: taking things we know are true and making them the whole story, or adding details that I don't recognise at all.

Please don't take this as a disagreement; I am no historian, just a keen student. Your view of things may be spot on, but there's nothing I've read before (with the exception of some of McCarthy's work) that comes across with certainty and clarity about the broader chain of events, as if we have an authenticated written history. And I'm pretty sure we don't have one of those.

I usually will ask when I share what I have learned so far, "Is this an accurate history?" because I actually like hearing the responses, those responses cause me to go back to researching the claimed inaccuracies. I have been corrected many, many, many times. and for that I am thankful.

Corrections are like a roll on the mats.

I have said on occasion that the road for a black belt in BJJ probably has 30,000 or 40,000 tapouts given, and 90,000 tapouts received. You probably going to get tapped 3 times (or more) for every one time you tap someone else.
Based on the popular conception that a BB in BJJ is 3,000 to 10,000 hours of mat time.

 

[Tez3]

In thirty odd years or more I've never heard Shotokan being called Shotokan Ryu, I have to say.

The koala “bear,” which is actually a marsupial and not a bear.

The Panda bear isn't a bear either, but a member of the racoon family (the largest one)

Another is “German” chocolate cake, a cake that didn’t originate in Germany but was created in America by a man with the last name “German.”

Usually pandas are called pandas and koalas... koalas, as for 'German' cake I've never heard of it. What things are called is dependent on where you come from usually.

 

[TSDTexan]

-Scott Shaw, Ph.D as stated
The Warrior Is Silent: Martial Arts and the Spiritual Path

In thirty odd years or more I've never heard Shotokan being called Shotokan Ryu, I have to say.



Usually pandas are called pandas and koalas... koalas, as for 'German' cake I've never heard of it. What things are called is dependent on where you come from usually.

It was fairly common in Texas, in the late 80s and early 90s, in the cities of San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, and Houston.
Perhaps its just a regional thing.


As for folks who are unfamiliar with Chinese Monks introducing what would become "Te" in the 700s, should read:
The Warrior Is Silent: Martial Arts and the Spiritual Path
isbn 1620550717 - Google Search
Scott Shaw, Ph.D. - 1998 - ‎Body, Mind & Spirit
Martial Arts and the Spiritual Path, Scott Shaw, Ph.D. Japanese contact with the Ryukyu Islands, of which Okinawa is a part, began in 616 C.E., when ... in the islands through Chinese Taoist and Buddhist monks during the late seventh century.

 

[hoshin1600]

TSDTexan
I would guess by your writing that you are an engineer or chemist or something like that or perhaps you just have the linear analytical thinking like one,
Thank you for trying to clarify.
I would point out as was already stated that you style of writing gives the reader the impression of absolutes. We are talking about history, an oral history for the most part. We really can't talk in absolutes when it comes to the very early origins of karate. We can only use probability. The idea of monks bringing martial arts to Okinawa is only one theory. First, that theory would then have to be framed with a fact that Buddhist monks knew martial arts to begin with. This again is only a theory based on more folklore then fact.
There are just to many unknowns in the history of karate. However that doesn't stop people from filling in the blanks with their own thoughts and agenda to create a flowing narrative.

 

[TSDTexan]

TSDTexan
I would guess by your writing that you are an engineer or chemist or something like that or perhaps you just have the linear analytical thinking like one,
Thank you for trying to clarify.
I would point out as was already stated that you style of writing gives the reader the impression of absolutes. We are talking about history, an oral history for the most part. We really can't talk in absolutes when it comes to the very early origins of karate. We can only use probability. The idea of monks bringing martial arts to Okinawa is only one theory. First, that theory would then have to be framed with a fact that Buddhist monks knew martial arts to begin with. This again is only a theory based on more folklore then fact.
There are just to many unknowns in the history of karate. However that doesn't stop people from filling in the blanks with their own thoughts and agenda to create a flowing narrative.

I write open mindedly of what I believe to be true. It doesn't mean I am necessarily correct or incorrect. The katas are the preponderance of evidence to say CMA impacted Okinaiwan Te. Therefore reason says I can safely believe it.

 

[hoshin1600]

I write open mindedly of what I believe to be true. It doesn't mean I am necessarily correct or incorrect. The katas are the preponderance of evidence to say CMA impacted Okinaiwan Te. Therefore reason says I can safely believe it.

OK ....so then what you are proposing is that the kata originally came from China.. hum....interesting. I wouldn't have belived it but your posts clearly show you know your history or are good at Wikipedia. The Kata came from China ...let me ponder that for a bit. Or maybe you are saying that karate in general came from China..I was always told the Okinawan invented it to fight against the samurai. So...karate is really Kung fu? Who would have thought. ......?

 

[TSDTexan]

OK ....so then what you are proposing is that the kata originally came from China.. hum....interesting. I wouldn't have belived it but your posts clearly show you know your history or are good at Wikipedia. The Kata came from China ...let me ponder that for a bit. Or maybe you are saying that karate in general came from China..I was always told the Okinawan invented it to fight against the samurai. So...karate is really Kung fu? Who would have thought. ......?

Well I read this a few years back,
History of Karate Prabhuji Ashram

Then I started looking into who was Kushanku.

That led me to knowledge that he was trained by a Shaolin monk.

This led me to what styles of "kung fu" the temple in Fujian Provence were taught.

Then I was reading something about how Wing Chun and Karate both had relations to White Crane Fist.

Which took me back full circle to
History of Karate Prabhuji Ashram


Only recently in the last day or two I have read some stuff on katas like origins because of stuff posted about bunkai, and looking to related forms in Kung Fu.

The Okinawas developed a fighting style or styles that are distinctly not kung fu, but are influenced by it.

Hence my assertion that Karate is an old mma.

 

[TSDTexan]

Hoshin1600: said "OK ....so then what you are proposing is that the kata originally came from China"

My response: "no, not exactly" The Katas that came to Okinawa did not remain as they were. They were modified, or edited.

 

[elder999]

OK ....so then what you are proposing is that the kata originally came from China.. hum....interesting. I wouldn't have belived it but your posts clearly show you know your history or are good at Wikipedia. The Kata came from China ...let me ponder that for a bit. Or maybe you are saying that karate in general came from China..I was always told the Okinawan invented it to fight against the samurai. So...karate is really Kung fu? Who would have thought. ......?

 

[hoshin1600]

I've met and worked with two out four of those masters in the comparison sanchin video.

Naw I just don't buy it...karate and Kung fu related. ...preposterous
Next thing you guys will be telling me is that water is wet.

 

[elder999]

I've met and worked with two out four of those masters in the comparison sanchin video.

Naw I just don't buy it...karate and Kung fu related. ...preposterous
Next thing you guys will be telling me is that water is wet.

And women have secrets......

 

[TSDTexan]

And women have secrets......

Or the Pope is Buddhist, but the Dali Lama is Catholic.

 

[DaveB]

TSDTexan,

An example of where the uncertainty lies in your viewpoint:

Well I read this a few years back,
History of Karate Prabhuji Ashram

Then I started looking into who was Kushanku.

That led me to knowledge that he was trained by a Shaolin monk.

This led me to what styles of "kung fu" the temple in Fujian Provence were taught...

The name Kushanku could be a person, but it could be a title.

The southern Shaolin temple in Fujian is an unproven myth. Nobody knows if it ever existed. The story is popular because of the prestige it brings to the area, but there's no evidence to support it.

 

[TSDTexan]

Okinawan Martial Arts History Kyushiki-Ryu Kempo-Jutsu is a really good read.

DaveB, have you ever been to Fujian area?
You have made an assertion that there is no evidence. This is not accurate.

Dao Guang returned to Fujian and selected Putian Linshan Mountain (which resembled "Jiu Lian" mountain in topography) as the site of the Southern Shaolin Temple. Evidence amassed by the three above referenced historical and archeological organizations establishes that the Tang Emperor, Li Shimin (600-649 AD), approved the proposed site and the construction of a Southern Shaolin Temple. He was particularly appreciative, as the warrior monks had earlier saved his life in a conflict with a rogue General who challenged his ascendancy to the throne. Li Shimin (Imperial title - Tai-Tsung) reigned from 626-649 AD. He brought Taoism and Buddhism together with Confucian policy to rule the country. The Chan tradition of the Southern Shaolin was also created at this time, together with that temple's practice of martial arts.

More than 30 experts in martial arts, history, religion and archeology firmly asserted that the central temple Lin Quan Yuan of this Southern Shaolin Temple was built around 557 A.D, during the Nan (South) Dynasty.

This is only 61 years later than the Song Shan Shaolin Temple and even one year earlier than the most famous Guan Hua Temple at Putian. Therefore it is the earliest temple built in Fujian.

The National Culture Bureau discovered the ruins of the center temple, "Lin Quan Yuan," in 1986 - more than 300 years after its destruction.

The ruins are located at Linshan Mountain (above sea level 500 meters) and are surrounded by mountains North, South, and East. The Temple's western side was opposite the Supine Buddha Mountain (above sea level 570 meters) with a river in between. The ruins are 200 meters long from west to east with a total area of about 30,000 square meters.

The terrain and its features bear a strong resemblance to Song Shan Shaolin Temple. The topography of the Southern Shaolin Temple is strategically located and quite difficult to access.

From a military perspective, it was easy to defend and difficult to challenge. In essence, it was an ideal place for executing revolutionary command and control of military strategy and tactics. There are more than 10 fortified mountain villages around it.

Today the ruins of these villages still exist. The four stone inscriptions of the Zhang Jiang Village confirm that it was built at the end of Ming Dynasty (1645 A.D) when Cibo Huang fought against Qing soldiers. There are also place names related to the Shaolin Temple at Lin Shan Village, such as Yuan Qian, Yuan Hou, Yuan Ke, Ta Li, Ta Xi, Fangseng Chi, Liangong Tan, etc.

Likewise, there are found some camp names related to martial arts practice as well, and a stone trough for the monk soldiers to treat wounded and ill casualties. It is engraved with Chinese calligraphy proclaiming that two Monk soldiers, Yongqi and Jinqi, of Linquanyuan Temple, the original name of the Southern Shaolin Temple, made this trough in September of the Year Jiayou of the Song Dynasty.


The stone trough is 226 cm long and 100 cm wide with the inscription "Bathing and boiling herb medicine for monks."

According to the stone inscription, it had more than 20 buildings with more than 500 monks living there. Lin Quan Yuan was not just a common temple.

It was a temple of Shaolin Martial Arts directly passed on by Shaolin Monk Soldiers. It became a branch of the Song Shan Shaolin temple.

Fujian Province's Fuqing County has had a Shaolin Yuan ever since Song times.

After the Southern Song capitulated to the Yuan, a Quanzhou native Liang Ke Jia revised the "Three Mountain Record" in 1182.

In Volume 36, called "Fuqing County Temples." of the Ming dynasty, Liang Ke Jia records that the Putian native named Huang Zhong Zhao, edited the "Records of the Min Area" around 1499, and this volume also records that there are eight temples in the Xin Ning area of Fuqing County:
Fang Dong,
Dong Lin,
Hou Tang,
Long Xi,
Zhao Fu,
Long Ju,
Shaolin,
and Da Xu.

Among these temples, the first to be built was the Fang Dong with construction beginning in 569. The Dong Lin temple was built sometime between 1086 and 1094. Hou Tang was built in 1117. However the other five temple's construction dates weren't recorded.

Fujian Provincial government and Fuzhou City archeological teams excavated the site in July and August of 1995 and March through October of 1996.

This is OFFICIAL.

The excavations uncovered a site of over 5000 square meters, currently the largest temple found within China. The archeologists' report found four strata: Northern Song, Southern Song, Ming/Qing, and nearly modern.

The Shaolin Yuan is in the northeastern corner of Fuqing county, at the intersection of three counties: Fuqing, Putian, and Yong Tai.

Sorry DaveB, but the Facts are against your assertion.

Story of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts - Southern Chinese Martial Arts in Qing Dynasty Part 1