Bully instructors

[Flea]

Flea, there's a key point you might have missed. You mentioned how shocked you were to see the technique held for so long.

Each time the student skittered away, the pressure was relieved. Each time the student tapped, the instructor eased off on the pressure (you can tell because the student stopped tapping).

That went under my radar. To be quite honest, it still is. But I'm willing to take your word on it. :asian:

 

[Master Dan]

I didn't see bullying either, what I saw was a series of techniques demonstrated on people who knew how to react to the techniques in such a way not to be seriously hurt.
Some things, you have to feel to understand...

I think Fle has her personal issues that do not relate to reality which are feminist in basis. I has some qusi feminist quasi feminist bb come into my space to teach sd and it was truly sad

 

[Kittan Bachika]

I have seen bullies. This instructor is not a bully. Just old school. He is demonstrating the techniques in a proper manner so his students can learn.

The problem is that a lot of people mistake hard training as bullying because it seems so rough and the only thing they have to compare it to is the mcdojo.

 

[elder999]

But you're right Elder, it's not for me. I'm okay with that - I don't think it makes me a wimp. It means that I have a different learning style from you, and perhaps I train with a different set of priorities. To each their own.

Didn't mean to imply for a minute that it did make you a wimp, Flea.

Not so sure that it means you have a different learning style than I do, as much as it means that you're learning a different style than I am. (See what I did there? :lfao: )

 

[jks9199]

I think Fle has her personal issues that do not relate to reality which are feminist in basis. I has some qusi feminist quasi feminist bb come into my space to teach sd and it was truly sad

Flea has openly admitted having some personal issues. I don't think they fed her concern here. I can see where a person who is unfamiliar with this sort of training would look at it and see it as the uke being brutalized, especially since we've been conditioned to see a person hopping and squirming around as being in significant pain.

There are unique demands for training women in self defense. And self defense is not the same as martial arts. Sure, there are plenty of folks out there who teach utter crap as self defense -- but the fact that someone is or is not a female or a feminist doesn't influence that.

Didn't mean to imply for a minute that it did make you a wimp, Flea.

Not so sure that it means you have a different learning style than I do, as much as it means that you're learning a different style than I am. (See what I did there? :lfao: )

Nicely done! We all should find the style and the training style that fits both our personalities and our needs and goals in training.

 

[Tanaka]

Lol if you think that is bullying or brutal. You must never have trained under a traditional Japanese teacher. That is perfectly normal in that video.

 

[shesulsa]

I think Fle has her personal issues that do not relate to reality which are feminist in basis. I has some qusi feminist quasi feminist bb come into my space to teach sd and it was truly sad

I really don't think you're going to get very far - at least not under the radar - by insulting other members of the board. If you think her reaction is not "related to reality" and "feminist in basis" you should see the eyes of some mothers when I have my own son diveroll over a sword or have their children do jumping breakfalls. Oh, and the dads when their daughters have to grapple a *boy*? Now THAT'S not living in reality and feminist in nature.

Please - refrain from judgement, especially when someone has never seen this level of training. This is a fine opportunity to share, to explore, to teach and to learn. I hope you have had the chance to do every one of those here on MartialTalk.

 

[Flea]

Flea has openly admitted having some personal issues. I don't think they fed her concern here.


There are unique demands for training women in self defense. And self defense is not the same as martial arts. Sure, there are plenty of folks out there who teach utter crap as self defense -- but the fact that someone is or is not a female or a feminist doesn't influence that.

Seriously! Everyone has personal issues. Even Chiba Sensei has personal issues. That argument has zero credibility if you're trying to discredit me or anyone else. As for the feminism thing, I doubt Master Dan really understands feminism. Honestly, it's not worth dignifying so I'm not going to go there. I'm also not going to have this thread sidetracked into women/men/SD/feminism bashing either if I can help it.

I posed a question on a subject I knew even less about than I thought I did, and so far I've been happy to be corrected. If we can keep it respectful, I'm happy to continue the conversation. Otherwise ... ooh, look! It's a bright shiny object! :lol:

 

[Blade96]

Thanks for your perspectives everyone.

I guess it's just outside of my experience; I've never seen that level of force applied and held for more than a moment.

It is certainly an eloquent demonstration of how effective any MA can be. I do think that learning can take place with less volume though, but clearly the uke is used to it and no one else seems to object either.

But you're right Elder, it's not for me. I'm okay with that - I don't think it makes me a wimp. It means that I have a different learning style from you, and perhaps I train with a different set of priorities. To each their own.

I havent seen a whole lot of aikido either. I knew it was aikido because they were wearing hakama's. And I knew aikidokas fall down a lot and i know what aikido teaches. But havent seen a whole lot of it which is probably why my first reaction was, Wtf is he tryin to do, break his arm?

 

[Bruno@MT]

I havent seen a whole lot of aikido either. I knew it was aikido because they were wearing hakama's. And I knew aikidokas fall down a lot and i know what aikido teaches. But havent seen a whole lot of it which is probably why my first reaction was, Wtf is he tryin to do, break his arm?

That is really like saying you knew a car was a 74 mustang because they have wheels and this car has wheels too.

Many traditional JMA have their practicioners wearing hakama. The locks etc are also very common in traditional jujutsu systems. The clip could have easily been of any of several dozen of jujutsu systems. Like daito ryu aikijujutsu for example:

[yt]XXngXtMdWrk[/yt]

 

[Chris Parker]

I havent seen a whole lot of aikido either. I knew it was aikido because they were wearing hakama's. And I knew aikidokas fall down a lot and i know what aikido teaches. But havent seen a whole lot of it which is probably why my first reaction was, Wtf is he tryin to do, break his arm?

As Bruno said, many systems, particularly the traditional ones, wear hakama. But, in reference to the bolded section, uh, yes. Yes he was. That's kinda the point of the technique.

To clarify, as he obviously was controlling it to the point where he wasn't breaking the arm, the way things have to be trained is with the mindset of their application. When I perform something in training, my intention is for it to do it's intended job. Last week I taught a technique using a hanbo called Koshi Ori, which translates as "Break the Hip". So, when I went through the kata with my students, I made no bones about the fact that that is the aim of the technique. In fact, I went to pains to point out that the weapon we are currently focusing on (the hanbo, a three foot stick) is a bone-breaker. That's it's entire job, as far as we're concerned.

In this particular kata, it involves levering the stick between the opponents arm and lower back in order to take them down onto their back, and following them down to the ground. I pointed out that the initial movement is not the "breaking of the hip" part, it's when they land (with their hip) on the stick on the ground. And I made sure everyone took it to that point, in order to get a feel for how the technique works... but I had them do it slowly, and gently, for safety, mainly due to the relative inexperience of the group. However, if I had not taken the kata through the way it was designed to work, as I didn't want to "hurt" my students and training partners, and not had the intention of having the kata work the way it was designed to, I might as well have gotten two much smaller sticks and started knitting, as that would have had as much relation to the art.

 

[Bruno@MT]

One of the major points for my sensei is that if we demonstrate a lock during kata, we have to take it to the point where the difference between pain and injury is made, and demonstrate that we have control over the lock and the person.

In a way, and especially if the lock is used to move the other person, the only reason the arm doesn't break is because we have enough control and decide not to go beyond that. This requires a great deal of concentration, as well as knowing your partner. This is also why locks are typically set gradually instead of applied with a snap.

To build in a safety margin and not take the lock to that level, would mean not learning control. It would require the other person just going along for the sake of the exercise, and in effect go against the entire reason you are standing there on that mat.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Just to take it right back to the first post for a second, as a student who acts as Uke the main thing I got from that clip (can't watch youtube at work so just got a chance to see it) was just how bad my own Ukemi is... I mean to use education as a metaphor, all of the Ukes in the clip are at a university level and in comparison I'm just out of kindergarten... I have no doubts whatsoever that if my instructor threw me around like that it would end with breaks or worse not because he is a bully but because I don't yet have the appropriate skill to move correctly with it

That being said watching that clip has just reconfirmed in my own mind the desire to learn Aikido down the track once I gain enough skill at my current art. The way the energy is harmonized is amazing and looks so effortless!

 

[Chris Parker]

Er, just to confirm what Supra has just said....

He broke my toe once. That was due, mainly, to his reaction to a particular shoulder-lock that I was using to take him down at one point, and his reaction started to move in a way that would result in a damaged, or broken elbow. So I pulled him in closer, in order to control him and not break his arm, and he landed on my toe and it broke. And that really comes down to differing levels of experience (as Uke) lending itself to different degrees of training intensity. I had a student once ask about training more intensely (they were very new, and just getting a handle on one or two basic actions), and I pointed out that they just weren't ready for it. To demonstrate, I attacked. Seriously. Fast. Hard. But controlled. They got what I meant by that then....

 

[Supra Vijai]

I meant my arm/shoulder/face But yeah... one of the first times acting as Uke and I end up breaking Sensei's toe because I panicked and forgot the basics.... not the proudest moment in my MA training I must say

Overall though, it's been a good thread! Lots of good responses showing a range of attitudes to what's appropriate when training. Has been highly informational for me and I hope for Flea as well. Thanks for posting the clip Flea

 

[jthomas1600]

At the TKD school I go to we do some joint locks and some throws as part of our SD curriculum. I wish we trained a little harder/tougher like this. One of the previous posters mentioned going to a school and just standing there when people were trying throws. I do this some times too. The other students are like "why isn't my magic working?".

What I really wanted to say though is that for students who practice in this kind of a school it must really go a long way towards developing trust and respect between the instructor and the students. For those of you who have trained in different schools with a variety of intensity levels do you find that to be true?

 

[dancingalone]

What I really wanted to say though is that for students who practice in this kind of a school it must really go a long way towards developing trust and respect between the instructor and the students. For those of you who have trained in different schools with a variety of intensity levels do you find that to be true?

Absolutely. But it's not necessarily just between the teacher and students - you build up a sense of trust and closeness to any of your partners since you are literally putting your health on the line playing uke for each other, trusting in them to be sensitive and in control enough to back off right when you reach the edge between pain and injury. For this reason, you'll usually never see beginners paired up with each other - they're placed with a senior student instead.

 

[Kacey]

Flea, I understand why you had a concern when you saw this without the background to understand what was going on - like other respondents, I would say that this was a beautiful demonstration of controlled technique. The only way to truly understand how a lock or control works is to have it done to you to the point where you can feel what can happen if it goes farther, which is the way we practice them as well, once the student reaches the point that s/he can do the move correctly without damaging his/her partner. Until the instructor is sure that the student can do the move correctly, and is with a partner who can respond correctly, locks and controls are practiced slowly and with light pressure - the speed and pressure are increased as the students learn the techniques.

 

[Balrog]

Add me to the list of those who don't see bullying. Yeah, he's a hardliner, but he's demonstrating techniques to advanced students using an advanced student as his partner. And from what I can tell, he's demonstrating from different angles so that the students can see how the technique is applied and they can also see the immediate result of the technique.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Bullying? Did I miss something? Seemed pretty nice to me. I did not see anything disrespectful or over the line.