Bully instructors

[Flea]

I found this rather chilling ...

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In the interest of full disclosure, I could only watch the first couple of minutes. It just made me sick and I had to turn it off. How common is this sort of thing? We all like to say that the arts teach a person character and humility, but of course anything that involves power is going to attract its share of dolts.

Personally, I can happily say that I've only ever encountered one bully in my vast 2+ years of MA experience. He was considerate enough to be rude and arrogant over the phone, thus saving me the trip. Now that's customer service. :uhyeah:

 

[Benevolentbob]

I don't know if I missed something but I didn't really see the instructor bullying anyone. He was certainly a tad bit rough in some places but I've seen randori be just as rough if not rougher on occasion. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who does not practice Aikido.

 

[Big Don]

I didn't see bullying either, what I saw was a series of techniques demonstrated on people who knew how to react to the techniques in such a way not to be seriously hurt.
Some things, you have to feel to understand...

 

[elder999]

I found this rather chilling ...


In the interest of full disclosure, I could only watch the first couple of minutes. It just made me sick and I had to turn it off. How common is this sort of thing? We all like to say that the arts teach a person character and humility, but of course anything that involves power is going to attract its share of dolts.

Rather common for aikido or jujutsu, not bullying, not doltish..............and not for you.

 

[Mike Hamer]

Agreed, no bullying here.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Rather common for aikido or jujutsu, not bullying, not doltish..............and not for you.

I have to agree. This is perfectly normal to me, and common for traditional Japanese martial arts like jujutsu and ninjutsu.

I've been uke myself on several occasions, and this is kind of the point. First, the sensei has to demonstrate for the class how to do something (hence the exaplanations and repeated movements), second, the uke learns valuable lessons because he feels what the sensei is trying to convey. I've been treated like that and worse. It goes with the territory, regardless of whether the sensei is brutal or gentle.

The uke also knows how to move to keep from damaging himself (which is why you see him jumping around a lot) and the sensei knows how far he can go with the uke. He will generally not ask newbies for uke duty because they don't know how to move and he doesn't know their physiology.

Aaron is right, in that this is probably not something for you.
There is no bullying here and I certainly would not think anything special of being treated like that.

 

[seasoned]

No different then in striking arts. Realistic, is key to learning. I would hate it when called up in front of class. But, the power and control demonstrated, was poetry in motion.

+1 more, "no bullying here".

 

[elder999]

There is no bullying here and I certainly would not think anything special of being treated like that.

Been really, really grateful on occasion, actually.....

Also, take note of how quicly and eagerly the uke comes back for more....

 

[K-man]

Sorry Flea. I'm with the others. Aikido is a very effective martial art despite what some on this forum think. The trouble is, not enough people have seen effective aikido. Note that Uke is jumping all over the place to try and avoid the locks and holds but once he taps, it finishes. Also, Uke is not a beginner. He understands what is happening. Anyone seeing kyokushin for the first time would probably say the same thing. Back in 1970 I walked into a dojo where the senior guys were beating the absolute be$e@s out of the new guys. I turned on my heel and didn't look again for 10 years unfortunately. There was blood everywhere.

We see so much crap aikido that it is actually refreshing to see some good stuff. Most aikido schools don't practise against resistance. In fact the students are told, "Go with it, don't resist". Well, we train against total resistance and you have to do the technique 100% right or it won't work. There is nothing worse than thinking your MA will protect you in a nasty situation and you get you **** whipped by a street thug. :asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, me too.

There was no "bullying" here, what I saw was someone who is determined to know that the techniques are powerful and viable, and wants the students to understand that as well. I also saw a very impressive degree of control, most of those locks are designed to completely destroy intricate joints like the wrist, and Kazuo Chiba Sensei there was taking things to a high level without ever being in danger of stepping over the line in to damaging actions. By this reckoning, I'd probably be considered a "bully" for some of my teaching methods as well, honestly (although I don't have any students at the level that I could take it to that degree, although I do tend to take them further than they think they can go. Not every class, but on occasion it's quite beneficial for them to realise that their personal limits are a lot further than they think).

 

[Aiki Lee]

I agree with all the above posts. Serious martial arts practice requires there be some degree of risk of injury. No body is going over board here in my eyes.

Flea, I'm curious as to what you found to be inappropriate with this instructor?

 

[harlan]

Ditto. I have 'heard' of certain teachers that enjoy damaging students, but didn't see that here. Saw control.

It actually 'feels' wonderful to train like that with a master. You can feel that they can feel your limits.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Thank goodness most people are reasonable here..

Martial Arts are a physical art.

this was good solid application, done with a group of people who know what to expect.
Its not like he took a group of beginners and beat the crap out of them.
I wish all martial arts schools showed more realism, ramped up from light at beginning level to intense at the higher levels. unfortunately we have to many schools filling people with unrealistic expectations by being all touchy feely worried about hurting people so they dont actually apply anything ever except a smile..... no thanks

 

[Flea]

Thanks for your perspectives everyone.

I guess it's just outside of my experience; I've never seen that level of force applied and held for more than a moment.

It is certainly an eloquent demonstration of how effective any MA can be. I do think that learning can take place with less volume though, but clearly the uke is used to it and no one else seems to object either.

But you're right Elder, it's not for me. I'm okay with that - I don't think it makes me a wimp. It means that I have a different learning style from you, and perhaps I train with a different set of priorities. To each their own.

 

[Featherstone]

The first time I stepped into an Aikido school I was 17. I was bigger then the instructor and he made a point of throwing me around for my "introduction" class. Was my first time doing something that wasnt a hard block strike combo with a kick. I rather enjoyed it, hehe.

 

[shesulsa]

These joint locks are known as "contain and control" techniques. They are often difficult to apply, especially with a resistant opponent.

Learning them involves being uke.

Uke is tapping, flip-falling, etcetera to ensure he does not get damaged.

Pain and damage are two different things and it is important to feel a properly applied technique. This uke appears to be advanced enough to take it.

It is shocking to some people to see footage like this, but I agree - no bullying here - a good lesson in properly applied arm locks. Notice the slack is taken out of the wrist and the arm is turned like a faucet to open the elbow up just so the lock can be applied VERY effectively.

This is demonstrated over and over and over again, but it's necessary to have really good technique.

And as Elder sez and you agree - not for you.

It is SO IMPORTANT to find the style that suits YOUR training needs/desires/comfort level.

Good training to you, Flea.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Flea, there's a key point you might have missed. You mentioned how shocked you were to see the technique held for so long.

Each time the student skittered away, the pressure was relieved. Each time the student tapped, the instructor eased off on the pressure (you can tell because the student stopped tapping).

I'm with the others. This is normal, even necessary - especially in arts like aikido where getting the lock right is vital.

 

[yorkshirelad]

When I was maybe 18 or 19, I attended an Aikido class in Dublin, under an instructor who is well known in the area. They trained so softly that it ceased to be a Martial Art and became a dance in my opinion. I went to 2 or three classes before I stoppedmoving voluntarily for the senior students. They thought I was being an ***, and to a degree, I was, but I wanted to feel th technique. In throws like Sumeotoshi and Iriminage, my balance wasn't being broken. When having controls like Hijishime (shown in the vidoe) and Sankajo being put on me, they were in fear of hurting me. Then I realized the problem, there was very little Ukemiwaza taught or practised in the class, so most of the students didn't know how to recieve techniques. It was disappointing! Eventually I studied Hapkido under Massan Ghorbani in Bray and I definately wasn't disappointed!

Chiba Sensei is one of the Aikido greats. It would be any Aikidoka's dream to uke for him.

 

[B'Dragon]

I have trained as uke with Chibe Sensei. And he is a great, hard Aikdoka. Not soft aikido at all. While the techniques in the video seem hard and they were, he knew his uke very well and knew what his ability to receive the technique was. Believe me with Sensei there was no ego involved.

Chiba Sensei is hard on the outside and a careing heart on the inside. When he trained with me he took me right to my limit, but not over. Painful yes, but wondeful at the same time. Getting thrown by Sensei was like entering a black hole; you attacked and then you were on the mat (usually face down!). But nothing broken. I seen him go out of his way not to hurt people, specially then they took bad ukemi.

But he is hard, wonderful and insiteful all at the same time. I have one of his pictures on my wall from a summer week long seminar I went to years ago. A very treasured memory.

Martial Arts is a mountain with my paths leading to the top.

May you train well. Peace.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I agree no bullying at all just superior technique with superior uke's to handle that level of application.