Bujinkan + ?

[mrhnau]

I recently joined the Bujinkan, and had a few questions regarding cross-training. The teacher does not mind students cross training (with some limitations), and even recommends it as you progress. He took TKD in the past, and one of the current students (only three regulars, including myself) takes shotokan karate.

My question is as follows. If you do cross train, what styles have you seen as beneficial for your studies? Do you see it as a compliment?

Which do you think is more beneficial? An internal or external? I'm contemplating studying Tai-Chi and Bagua after a while, and was curious if anyone else has taken this approach with Bujinkan being their first art. How were your experiences?

At what point (kyu) should I consider adding a different style?

thanks!

MrH

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

First you have to ask yourself why you feel the need to cross-train. If it's because you feel something is lacking from your regular training, chances are the people you're training with haven't studied what's already available within the Bujinkan enough and/or correctly.

 

[Cryozombie]

The opinions of the JE's that you will recieve from this question aside, MY opinion is that crosstraining can be good, even if its only a few weeks here and there in several arts to see how they "work" mechanically... or to give you an idea of what others do.

I have made several visits to different schools, just to observe how things are done... I havn't had a strong desire to train in anything else... but to see how others train, yes. I have often brought ideas and questions to class based on what I had seen other arts doing...

The JE's think its fine to isolate yourself within the Bujinakan, and maybe it is, if you are at the level many of them are at, or training directly with Soke and the other Shihan...

But thats not 90% of us.

 

[Bigshadow]

First you have to ask yourself why you feel the need to cross-train. If it's because you feel something is lacking from your regular training, chances are the people you're training with haven't studied what's already available within the Bujinkan enough and/or correctly.

I am in agreement with Nimravus, here.

Also, it is my personal opinion that cross training isn't necessary. There is certainly more to learn in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu than I can in a lifetime, so it is my opinion that the time I would use training in another MA, is time I am wasting, if I truely want to learn BBT.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'm sorry. I forgot that I'm extremely spoiled as far as Bujinkan training is concerned. I have seven different dojos within reasonable distance to choose from and have trained in all but one of them several times. The teaching methodologies and training emphasis of each is also very often quite different from the others. Since there is only one person who holds what is closest to the "truth" about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (whom also happens to be a very poor teacher:uhyeah: ), I feel it is absolutely necessary to study all of the available interpretations by experiencing the Taijutsu of many different shidoshi.

(Note: more often than not, I get more out of training with people who aren't too fond of replicating stuff they've recently picked up in Japan. However, this might not have been the case hadn't it been for many "JE's" teaching method of simply demonstrating what they THINK they've seen in Japan without any given personal reflections, much less explanations.)

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm sorry. I forgot that I'm extremely spoiled as far as Bujinkan training is concerned. I have seven different dojos within reasonable distance to choose from and have trained in all but one of them several times.

Theres somthing to be said for that as well... the more instructors you can experience, the better your training will be... I agree with THAT wholeheartedly.

 

[Don Roley]

The JE's think its fine to isolate yourself within the Bujinakan, and maybe it is, if you are at the level many of them are at, or training directly with Soke and the other Shihan...

But thats not 90% of us.

Actually, most of the Japan Elitists I know cross train as well.

The problem I have with it in this situation is that MrH has just started Bujinkan. I don't think you should cross train in another art until you have a very firm foundation in Bujinkan. It is too easy to start looking at things through another art's eyes and come up with something that really is neither Bujinkan or the new art.

In my case, I like Tai Chi as a complement to the Bujinkan. If you can get a good teacher that is. The movements I have seen really don't clash with the principles of Bujinkan and you can practice the form on your own. People also don't look on you like a wanna-be assasin if they find you practicing and ask what you are doing.

But I would put off cross training for a few years to make sure you know what you are doing. Of course, there are instructors now that claim to be doing taijutsu that look more like some other art in my opnion so maybe getting a firm base like that is more difficult than I thought.

 

[Cryozombie]

Actually, most of the Japan Elitists I know cross train as well.

My Aplogies then...

It seems to me that whenever the question of "What can I study in addition to the bujinkan to supplement its teachings" the JE's jump in with "NOTHING! The bujinkan has it all!" and while I dont neccessarily DISAGREE that it probably does, I dont think seeing what others do hurts either.

But, again, what do I know... im not even close to 1st dan yet.

 

[Kizaru]

Actually, most of the Japan Elitists I know cross train as well...

I live in Japan and I cross-train, but am I a Japan Elitist? Dunno....

Anyway, I'd say wait on cross training until you've learned everything in the Ten Chi Jin ryaku no Maki, and consider yourself generally proficient at it.

As far as cross training I've done in the past, I've had the best experiences with "hands on" teaching styles, rather than those who just teach solo drills. I've had the most fun with Bagua, Hsing Yi, Filipino MA's, jujutsu and kenjutsu schools.

When I cross train, I try and do what the teacher is showing without letting too much of my own bias float in. I don't judge, give my opinion or compare; just do it. I'm there to be a student, not a show off.

Gassho.

 

[Don Roley]

When I cross train, I try and do what the teacher is showing without letting too much of my own bias float in. I don't judge, give my opinion or compare; just do it. I'm there to be a student, not a show off.

I try to do the same. There are enough jerks in the martial arts that show up to other styles to try to show them up that not voluntering any previous experience makes the teachers less defensive.

The worst thing to do is to say, "well in XXX we do it differently." That may be a good move over beers with martial arts friends from other styles, but not in a class that is teaching something other than XXX.

 

[Fallen Ninja]

I feel that when you cross train you distort your taijutsu to make it a mutated form of something that taijutsu was never ment to be. There are so many little things that other sport styles have that will mess you up or give you bad habits. Like use of strength. I think if you understand that BBT has 9 schools that it derives from, and when you understand that they all are unique in their own way, you will see that there is no need to cross train.

I had this guy we were going over saka/gyaku nagare and he tried to hit me with a front snap kick from Kenpo. Completly messed up the kata and had no effect on my kamae. I also think that when you cross train you insult the fullness of our art.

FN

 

[Kizaru]

I I think if you understand that BBT has 9 schools that it derives from, and when you understand that they all are unique in their own way, you will see that there is no need to cross train....

So what do you do when you understand that they are all connected and/or related in some way? What about relations and o influences with other arts indegenous to Japan? Is studying Noh theatre under your umbrella of negative cross training? Noh theatre has a very specific kind of movement and rhythm to it; it also happens to have some direct connections to Budo/Bushido etc....

I also think that when you cross train you insult the fullness of our art.

I think when people make uninformed, broad, stereotypical statements, they insult the "fullness" of our art.

 

[Don Roley]

I find myself between Fallen Ninja and Kizaru on this point. As I said before, I do not think that cross training early on is a good idea. Too many people seem to think that because boxing has good punches and Kali has good knife work you can take the skills from there and add it into what you do in the Bujinkan dojo. To my eyes, it looks like Frankenstien's monster in the way it is peiced together. Each part may be good, but they were not meant to work together and there are clashes.

On the other hand, I recently talked about how in the Bujinkan we do not have things that you can find in things like Russian Martial Arts such as Systema. The way they can absorb punches may indeed be a good addition to the modern artist. In the old days, the prevelent idea was that everyone had a bladed weapon and I doubt the idea of taking a blow was a top priority.

On the gripping hand (kudos for the first person to identify that reference) it may be that trying too early to work on taking a blow may detract from the Bujinkan's emphisis of avoiding a blow.

Hence, like Kizaru I would say that the Bujinkan is not the ultimate martial art and there are things you can learn from other arts. But like Fallen Ninja I kind of feel that the poster should stick with Bujinkan for a good while before trying new things.

I have seen people who teach Bujinkan who move more like karateka or judoka and believe that they are doing what the mainstream Bujinkan is supposed to be. I rather suspect that Mrh's teacher may be one of them if he advised a begginer to cross train.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

On the other hand, I recently talked about how in the Bujinkan we do not have things that you can find in things like Russian Martial Arts such as Systema. The way they can absorb punches may indeed be a good addition to the modern artist. In the old days, the prevelent idea was that everyone had a bladed weapon and I doubt the idea of taking a blow was a top priority.

Two highly merited, though relatively unknown, Bujinkan practitioners that I know of used to hammer each other's collar bones just to see if they could manage to break them, back when both of them were training. They never could, as far as I know.

On the gripping hand (kudos for the first person to identify that reference) it may be that trying too early to work on taking a blow may detract from the Bujinkan's emphisis of avoiding a blow.

On the other hand, when there's roughly 200 pounds of ninth dan mayhem focused on the end of a 180 centimeter Japanese white oak stick, you tend to learn pretty fast which parries can be done repeatedly and which ones you only do once, assuming you're not wearing armour...

I have seen people who teach Bujinkan who move more like karateka or judoka and believe that they are doing what the mainstream Bujinkan is supposed to be.

Mainstream Bujinkan? Is there really anything like that (*not being ironic nor assuming mainstream Bujinkan means what's currently done in Japan*)?

 

[rutherford]

On the gripping hand (kudos for the first person to identify that reference) it may be that trying too early to work on taking a blow may detract from the Bujinkan's emphisis of avoiding a blow.

Alright, I'll admit to an enjoyment of classic SF novels. I never did manage to read The Gripping Hand but I have the first book.

When presented with three options, the gripping hand is often the most compelling option.

. . .

Don, do you practice Silat Juru or Langkah? I've seen you mention Silat before, and I was wondering if you'd practiced their muscle memory excercises.

 

[Bigshadow]

Mainstream Bujinkan? Is there really anything like that (*not being ironic nor assuming mainstream Bujinkan means what's currently done in Japan*)?

In my opinion there does exist a mainstream Bujinkan and fringe groups. How to define it, is a different question indeed. There are clearly many people out here doing their own thing.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

And you base this on your experience with several different dojos, perhaps even of different nationalities?

 

[Don Roley]

And you base this on your experience with several different dojos, perhaps even of different nationalities?

Well, I do. You should see the way some people that show up to Japan seem to want to do their own thing more than what the teacher is doing. At class last night the teacher was talking to me and a Japanese student about how so many people in the Bujinkan don't seem to go through the stuff the teacher is showing but rather do their own thing to make the other person go splat. It may seem to work, but there are lesson to be lerned from doing things a specific way and they lose the chance to learn those lessons by trying to change things in the quest for a quick result.

When I talk about mainstream Bujinkan, I am talking about what I see Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan doing. As I said, there are many, many more that seem to move more like a karateka or a judoka more than they move like the Noguchi, Nagato or any other big name Japanese.

 

[Dale Seago]

When I talk about mainstream Bujinkan, I am talking about what I see Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan doing.

Same here. This is, after all, the group that defines the Bujinkan.

I have the same gripe as Don about people who want to "do their own thing" rather than first trying to grasp what's being shown. . .So did Harada sensei when he was here in California for a year.

Ironically, a correspondent in Japan just saw the 15-minute "class" I taped for Issue #3 of Modern Knives Video Magazine. He's met me in Japan, but it's interesting that he commented after seeing it, "I am sorry I never got to see you do your thing before now".

Well, of course, on the video I am indeed doing MY thing (and a couple of my students are doing theirs). In Japan, I try to do whatever I (think I) can understand of Soke's thing, or the things of the various shihan I train with.

Meaning that over there, I mostly look like an idiot. Yet for some reason Soke keeps throwing menkyo at me every now and then. No discussion or warning, they just show up in my mailbox.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Sorry guys, but I think we're not getting through to each other here. I really don't think you can equate the majority of Bujinkan practitioners around the world with the Japanese shihan (putting it mildly, we've already established that the grasp of kihon among Bujinkan practitioners generally speaking is...less than desirable). That is what we SHOULD be doing, if we were close to their level of proficiency. Having said that, I absolutely agree that you at least should be trying to replicate what you are being shown in Japan whilst in Japan, but I don't think you can call that the type of training most people could or should be focusing on while at home, (hopefully) trying to better themselves beforehand. When in Japan, do as the Japanese do, sure...but it also seems prudent to know your own limitations, right?
When I was considerably younger and wrote letters to Beastie Boys and Cypress Hill asking them to be present at my 11th birthday party, that made perfect sense at the time. Looking back on it now, however, it obviously seems a tad unrealistic, and above all moronic. But you see, I made the same mistake a lot of people do with the Japanese shihan nowadays. I thought that my then idols were really exactly like me deep down inside, only I had chosen to be ten or eleven years old, going to school every day and getting into fights with the children of refugees from the former Soviet union, and they had chosen their hiphop music careers. That was not the case, and it still isn't today.