BS or Not?

[punisher73]

I remember sparring with a kickboxing coach one time. He kept getting mad because he would try to circle around and I would just switch leads and kept telling me that it wasn't how it was supposed to be done. I'm a lefty, but since most things in life are designed for right handed people I do most things equally.

I agree with Flying Crane's statement, " you reposition as needed".

What occurs naturally in an adrenaline dump/startle situation is that you will square to the target, both eyes open and both hands equal in preparation for a fight or flight. If you have time to think about it, whether through preconflict resolution training or a more "consensual" fight then strong/weak side forward comes more into play.

Even then, watch boxers who get into fights at press conferences (youtube it). You won't see much of their training coming into play of judging distance with the jab to set up a power shot and other ring tactics. They look like any other street brawler. This comes back down to the stress inoculation of a specific scenario. It is much different fighting a guy in a ring at an agreed upon time and place and just fighting.

Your training should reflect what you hope to accomplish with that training. Do you want to spar/kumite or compete in striking combat sports? Then find out which lead works the best for YOU with the tools and tactics you can employ the best.

Just some food for thought, Bruce Lee had one leg shorter than the other and he picked his stance based, in part, because of that.

 

[Anarax]

Some knife fighting systems, based on either military or prison fighting systems, use strong side back. The non dominant hand is used to grab and control. Rex Applegate shows such a system in his classic Kill or get Killed, and Don Pentecost's book, Put them down, take them out shows the same from a prison fighting perspective.

Interesting. Do you know of any systems that teaches the weapon is held by the non-dominant hand?

 

[marques]

I just read a martial arts book in which the author states that one should always use their best hand as their forward hand and their rear hand for power punches. Basically do the opposite of what your normal punching stance would be. Their reasoning was that you need the hand with more coordination to be your primary defense/jab hand.

What is everyones thoughts on this idea?

The “always” is relative to the author’s opinion. Many approaches are valid as anything in life. My opinion is both sides should be equally coordinated, even if with different specialisations.

What do you mean by “best hand”, the most coordinated?

Stronger side leading is the JKD approach. My (mainly) one is left side leading, the less powerful, used for defence and creating opportunities to my right rear arm (common in kick/boxing). Similar to the author’s approach, but it is not about the most coordinated arm. Power without precision is dumb. So the more powerful rear side should be fine as well.

Speaking about legs, currently I feel better kicking with my left side, which is my main lead side, and I need switching for power. Switching legs implies previous hand and foot work... There is no simple rule, which make things fun and harder for the opponent.

“Always” and “never” are used to simplify things, but very often not accurate.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The "cross stance" that you have

- left hand forward, and
- right leg forward

can be a compromise. You use your weaker left hand to cover your strong right hand while your strong right hand can still have the maximum reach.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From the wrestling point of view, if you have strong right hand forward and your opponent has weak left hand forward, when you move in, during the initial contact, your opponent's weak left hand will have problem to deal with your strong right hand.

Since that initial contact may decide whether your opponent's entering strategy will work or not, to have your strong hand as your first line defense is important.

Strong leading hand = strong first line defense/offense

 

[pdg]

The "cross stance" that you have

- left hand forward, and
- right leg forward

can be a compromise. You use your weaker left hand to cover your strong right hand while your strong right hand can still have the maximum reach.

The stance is too long and too wide to effectively use both hands.

Also, having the rear foot turned out around 90° at those distances influences the angle of the hips and introduces a twist in the torso to get the shoulders square.

If you feel the need to have the rear foot turned out so far, then get the feet closer together - or if you want that stance length get the rear foot turned out no more than around 30°.

 

[wab25]

Strong leading hand = strong first line defense/offense

This is much too broad of a statement. Both ideas will work, (strong side forward or strong side back) if trained and used correctly.

In a persons lifetime, they only have a finite number of repetitions that they can do to train. Assuming that number is 100,000 reps... You can do 100,000 reps on one side or your can split that and do 50,000 reps on each side. You can apply the same thing from either side or apply that thing twice as well, from one side. We see different systems, pick either solution... and they are able to be successful either way.

Sure, if you train both sides, you don't have to figure out how to switch. But, you do have to process which side you are in. If you train for one side, you just go there, no thought required.

At the end of the day, its how you train. There are options. Strong side forward, Strong side back and switching. They can all work, they have all been proven successful. They all have flaws and limitations. You must understand how to apply and use which ever one you choose... because people know how to take advantage of the weaknesses inherent in each of them.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Me too. The only thing that suffers here is my left round kick sucks.

My solution to this was to add a switch/shuffle step to right side roundhouse. Not ideal, since people can see it, but if its timed right it works.

 

[JowGaWolf]

From the wrestling point of view, if you have strong right hand forward and your opponent has weak left hand forward, when you move in, during the initial contact, your opponent's weak left hand will have problem to deal with your strong right hand.

Not sure. I think thinking like this limits development. There have been times when I was strong hand forward and it did very little in terms of power, but helped me lure someone to my left side which is stronger for certain techniques. I have also had the same stance where I was power hand forward with the purpose of having power forward.

This whole talk about "Strong leading hand = strong first line defense/offense" is strange to me. I can be equally as strong on defense and offense depending on what is being thrown at me. If I want to knock someone's head off then I'm going to be power arm back with let arm setting up and controlling. If I want to ram a punch then I'm going to be power hand forward. If I want to kick then I'll probably be power hand back. Some days I don't make it about power or speed and I just take the stance that makes it most difficult for my opponent to perform because I know he or she can only fight from one side.

I think conversations like this is what gets martial arts into trouble because people start saying things without consideration for the context in which things are done. It makes the assumption that one way is better or more productive. If a person train both sides then a lot of what has been mentioned wouldn't even apply

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm a lefty, but since most things in life are designed for right handed people I do most things equally.

My brother is the same way. Switching sides is easy for him. If he can't get you standing one way then he'll switch it up on you.

Most people get comfortable standing or fighting in one stance, or with power hand back. Those guys are easy to fight because all you have to do is switch stance and fight south paw.

If a person can only fight from one stance then much of what was said here would be very accurate.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Both ideas will work, (strong side forward or strong side back) if trained and used correctly.

In battle field, if your enemy can run over your 1st line weak soldiers, your 2nd line strong soldiers my be run over by your own 1st line weak soldiers too.

Enemy -> 1st line of your weak defense -> 2nd line of your strong defense

IMO, it's smart to put your strongest soldiers as close to your enemy as possible.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

In battle field, if your enemy can run over your 1st line weak soldiers, your 2nd line strong soldiers my be run over by your own 1st line weak soldiers too.

Enemy -> 1st line of your weak defense -> 2nd line of your strong defense

IMO, it's smart to put your strongest soldiers as close to your enemy as possible.

Not sure if this is your intention, but this immediately makes me think of trapping/jamming

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a person train both sides then a lot of what has been mentioned wouldn't even apply

Have you ever seen any

- Judo guy who can do hip throw on both sides?
- person who can write on both hands?
- Chinese who can use chopstick on both hands? (I can't.)
- tennis player who can play well on both side?
- gun fighter who can shoot well on both hands?
- ...

To train on both sides is good in theory but it's not realistic.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not sure if this is your intention, but this immediately makes me think of trapping/jamming

You can guide your opponent's leading weak arm to jam his own back strong arm.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

If you train on the right, train on the left. Both, should be as equal with each technique. It takes time but can be done.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think conversations like this is what gets martial arts into trouble because people start saying things without consideration for the context in which things are done.

I'm not sure about the striking art. But for the wrestling art, this theory has been tested for over 1000 years.

The following entering strategy is very commonly used in mirror stance (leading right vs. leading left).

- The guy A on the right has strong right side forward. The guy B on the left has the weak left side forward.
- When A moves in, A's strong right arm deals with B's weak left arm.
- If A's strong leading right arm can push B's weak leading left arm back and cause B's center to move back, B's strong back right arm won't be able to function well.

You can see in the whole process, B's strong right back hand doesn't have chance to give A enough trouble.

 

[WingChunChick]

In battle field, if your enemy can run over your 1st line weak soldiers, your 2nd line strong soldiers my be run over by your own 1st line weak soldiers too.

Enemy -> 1st line of your weak defense -> 2nd line of your strong defense

IMO, it's smart to put your strongest soldiers as close to your enemy as possible.

The Romans, one of histories most effective fighting forces might disagree with you. In fact Rome was famous for its three line approach(they put the weakest in front)

There have been successful forces that did both. Just depends how you use it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a person train both sides then a lot of what has been mentioned wouldn't even apply

In the striking art, it's just a right punch on the face vs. a left punch on the face. In the wrestling art, it's more complicate than that.

In the following picture, his

- right major strong hand controls his opponent's body.
- left minor weak hand controls his opponent's arm.
- right attack leg blocks his opponent's legs.
- left rooting leg supports his own body.

Can he do this throw as good as he can on the other side? IMO, it's quite unlikely.

 

[JR 137]

I keep forcing myself to go weak side forward/strong side back. I’m fine with that with lesser skilled sparring partners. When I’m outclassed, I really struggle with staying with it. My right is quicker and more coordinated than my left, so it’s easier and quicker to defend and attack with my right forward. Punches and kicks apply here.

For quite some time I thought nothing was wrong with my strong side forward. Then I started hitting a heavy bag. I realized quickly how weak my strong side is when it’s forward compared to when it’s back. My strong side (right) is actually weaker when it’s forward than my weak side (left) is when it’s back. I figured out having my strong side forward is all flash and no bang. What’s the point in having my strong side forward if it’s actually weaker than my weak side?

No matter how much I work at making it stronger, it’s not going to catch up. I’d rather hit hard than hit fast. I’m not that much slower with my left forward, but I notice it. Instead of hitting someone with 3 weaker punches or kicks, I’d rather hit with 2 hard ones. The point is to end the fight as quickly as possible, and harder punches and kicks will do that.

So I keep forcing myself to stay in an orthodox stance. The hard part is to stick with it when I’m getting outclassed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The stance is too long and too wide to effectively use both hands.

The correct width of a wrestling stance is your opponent's hand (or leg) won't be able to reach to your back leg.

During clinch, if your opponent's leg can reach to your back leg, you will be in trouble.