Brit Boy Scouts cant have pocket knives

[shesulsa]

On the one hand, it is their own country and their own scouting program, to do with as they see fit.

But the USA is our country, and we need to guard against those far lefties, enamored of all things European, who would seek impose these things upon us.

Okay for them; just plain silly in the USA.

Ah, but BSUSA was inspired and actually spread from the scouting program in England created by Lord Baden-Powell. As scouts do abroad, likely scouts will also do here, it's just a matter of time.

Scouting without knives? What next, they take out the archery and rifle parts too? Also fire starting?

Sheesh.

Ironically, many troops have followed this very model. Only older scouts start fires and adults use knives in many (though certainly not all) troops. Wanna talk about Girl Scouts? Fuggeddabowdit.

All that's left is a bunch of dudes in the woods dressed silly.

Um, not quite, but I see your point.

Good grief! I was using a pocketknife since I was practically a baby. I remember my dad giving me one and teaching me how to use it well before I joined the Brownie scouts. And of course I still had one as a Girl Scout when I grew out of the Brownies.

I can't believe that little British kids would be using these pocketknives against each other as weapons. Come on!

I think your experience belies your age, ma'am. As a leader who carried a knife I was frowned upon by many.

Well, lets remember that its in the US that some moron interpreted the "no weapons policy" at schools to include the armaments of action figures.

As a scout that probably managed to own (and lose) enough knives over the course of my scouting career to equip at least a patrol and possibly a smallish troop, I'm pretty unimpressed with whatever logic went into this decision. I'm pretty sure Lord Baden-Powell would be turning over in his grave. The totin' chip gave training on both the use of knives and tools, but also on how and when to use them.

Logic? You want logic to have something to do with this? Heh! No, dear, we're talking about government restriction.

It's only ADVICE, not a law. Scouts here..they dropped the Boy bit years ago, will still take them to camp scout leaders have said. they always were pretty regulated. Scouts here don't do archery or anything to do with guns....guns the army, navy and RAF cadets do.

it's not the law guys, it's actually what has been done for ages. Okay have you finished ripping us to pieces now?

Tez, I don't think we're ripping your country to shreds. I think we're allowed to disparage decisions along these lines whether they occur in the UK, the US, PR, Canada, Spain, Ukraine, Australia or the moon. The discussions regarding the danger to citizens afforded by limiting their ability to defend themselves would be and often is a vital discussion on these boards. I'm sure if these laws existed in any other country, we would be disparaging the fact that said country passed these kinds of laws. After all, self-defense rights are just *going* to be discussed on a discussion board and as the world gets smaller and people travel more, this kind of international discourse in pursuit of knowledge is ... expected. :asian:

I will say, from what I've seen of Boy Scouting, the things that bother me are the militarism which is fostered. I understand the value of unity and know that uniformity can foster this ... I just worry sometimes that in some cases we are pouring combat fertilizer upon our young men.

I also am privy to the fact that knife violence has become more high-profile than ever - likely because guns have been removed as well.

That said, I think this move is a big mistake.

 

[Tez3]

Ok whats really annoying me is being ripped apart for something that hasn't happened and won't, it's fine criticising us but get it right!
From the horses mouth and perhaps you won't believe everything you read in the newspapers.

http://scouts.org.uk/news/225/scouting-refutes-knife-ban-claims

"

Several incorrect stories have appeared in the media this week reporting a knife ban in Scouting.
In fact, Scouting's rules on the subject have not significantly changed since the late 1960s.
Knives may still be used by young people and adults during supervised camps and other outdoor activities.

Scouting encourages young people to learn to respect knives, and use them sensibly to learn outdoor skills such as fire lighting, shelter building and backwoods cooking.
The Movement provides a safe supervised environment in which young people can learn how and how not to use them - including how to avoid injuring themselves and others.

The Scout Association does not condone young people carrying knifes on their person as a matter of course, unless there is a specific need for one.
Scouting recommends training in the handling of knives not only for young people, but also for their adult leaders. Advice on the use of knives in Scouting is updated periodically and most recently an article appeared in Scouting magazine, the publication that goes out every two months to Scouting's 100,000 adult members. "

Oh and yes British Scouting is mixed sex.

 

[CoryKS]

I swear you guys post this stuff just to watch Irene have a stroke.

When my kid was in kindergarten, his teacher called to inform us that he had bitten a cookie into the shape of a gun and was shooting it at other students. We were like, "and...?" Took us five minutes to understand what the point of the call was, because she took as given that we understood that this was a Bad Thing. Nobody has a monopoly on Nervous Nellies.

 

[Tez3]

I swear you guys post this stuff just to watch Irene have a stroke.

Yep!
I'm very angry at the moment must admit not at this but at a mum and dad, I finished kids class earlier at half seven when at this time of year it gets dark, I had a girl of 11, just a slip of a thing, hanging behind to talk to me, she'd come on her bike and she was scared to ride home in the dark on her own. She lives the other side of the garrison to where the club is, it's a good half hour bike ride, there are some cycle paths but we have a lot of rough land with woods. She had no coat to cover her Gi, no reflective strips or bands, no lights on her bike then she said she cycled through a park as a shortcut, this park has youths hanging around it and we've had two rapes there in the past couple of years. I was spitting bricks, I had to leave the adults class to a junior instructor and cram her bike in the car ( a small Honda civic) to get her home, we drew up and her parents didn't even look to see her getting out of a strange car. I didn't go to the door with her, I would have punched the mother or father!
Aaaargh!

Actually Scouts are pansies because they cook on gas fires, the Guides (girls only and determined to stay that way) cook over open fires and still make camp 'gadgets', go girls!!

Okay, please check next time you think we've done something stupid yeah?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

For the record, I think too many people are too sensitive when it comes to things like this. I didn't read this as an anti-Brit bit, but anti-stupid bit. Maybe it makes perfectly good sense to some, but to me, it just read as stupid.
Same as you can't comment on some pedo priest without it being an anti-catholic thing, or on what Obama did without it being somehow racist, or complimenting an Arab without being called a terrorist lover. Rhino's have thicker skin. We need more rhinos, and less tomatoes. Why tomato? How thin is their skin eh? Oh wait, there I go making fun of those Canadian's again. Crikey! Oh ****! Now the Aussies are going to come beat me with a wallabies.

Can't we all just get together, put on non-toxic gloves, hold hands, and sing kumbiya around a safe biodegradable picture of a fire?

 

[Tez3]

For the record, I think too many people are too sensitive when it comes to things like this. I didn't read this as an anti-Brit bit, but anti-stupid bit. Maybe it makes perfectly good sense to some, but to me, it just read as stupid.
Same as you can't comment on some pedo priest without it being an anti-catholic thing, or on what Obama did without it being somehow racist, or complimenting an Arab without being called a terrorist lover. Rhino's have thicker skin. We need more rhinos, and less tomatoes. Why tomato? How thin is their skin eh? Oh wait, there I go making fun of those Canadian's again. Crikey! Oh ****! Now the Aussies are going to come beat me with a wallabies.

Can't we all just get together, put on non-toxic gloves, hold hands, and sing kumbiya around a safe biodegradable picture of a fire?

Well, it would have been an anti stupid thing...if it had happened!

 

[Tez3]

Ripping US?? to pieces? Sorry but that seem a little sensitive considering...

We are bemoaning the Scouts being deprived of training and experience with what is probably one of THE fundamental human tools for surviving in the outdoors. It's the young men in your country that we are voicing our concern over...if you folks dont see a problem with it thats your affair. Just our opinion.

Well, it is ripping us to pieces because the story simply isn't true. The newspaper is wrong! I don't see a problem because there isn't one unless you count the press getting their facts wrong...again.

As I said before Scouting in this country is mixed sex so that's the welfare of the young men AND women.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Everybody knows you can't believe what you read in the funny papers.

I too thought it was just plain ridiculous and was commenting on that aspect, not bashing any Brits.

I like the Brits! Their flag is way cooler than ours and they gave me Dr. Who and Iron Maiden. What's not to like!?! :bangahead:

 

[Tez3]

Everybody knows you can't believe what you read in the funny papers.

I too thought it was just plain ridiculous and was commenting on that aspect, not bashing any Brits.

I like the Brits! Their flag is way cooler than ours and they gave me Dr. Who and Iron Maiden. What's not to like!?! :bangahead:

The bloody weather!

It does seem to me sometimes that people post stuff up and it comes out like 'look what the stupid Brits have done now' which is really annoying for a couple of reasons, firstly people who don't understand how a country works start criticising it based on what they know about their own country ie when people were saying arresting someone was over the top etc and I had to explain that arrest here isn't the same as arrest in America. Secondly, assuming that the people agree with something just because a government has done it, you don't always agree with your government why assume we do with ours? We get accused and it has been done, of being sheep led by the nose, it doesn't occur to anyone that often people are fighting things and often things are overturned by public pressure. we have a fair few things wrong, who hasn't but don't assume it's stupid until the story is checked and it's current....a thread was posted on here about a 'new' stop and search law in England and how awful it was but I had to point out the law was nearly 20 years old and had been working fine.

In this story everyone just assumed oh it's the UK and it's banning knives must be true without bothering to find out whether it was or not and we were lectured! That really rankles!! All that B-P must be turning in his grave...thanks. We get sarcasm and then get talked down to so yep, I'm not having a stroke but I am annoyed. it's not as though we even have BOY Scouts!

 

[CoryKS]

I will say, from what I've seen of Boy Scouting, the things that bother me are the militarism which is fostered. I understand the value of unity and know that uniformity can foster this ... I just worry sometimes that in some cases we are pouring combat fertilizer upon our young men.

Having been a den leader for my son's Cub Scout den, I've taken their leadership training and I can tell you that they expressly forbid any sort of militarism. No drills, no oaths beyond the PoA (which they are not required to say), nothing that even looks military. The only thing that might be considered similar would be the khaki shirts, but even park rangers wear those.

On a lighter note, those Boy Scout-aged kids are right at the age where the hormones are starting to fire up but hygeine has not yet become a pressing concern. Many of them go home from their meetings and ball up the shirt in the closet until the next occasion. Those uniforms may look the same, but they come in a breathtaking variety of funk. :rofl:

 

[Xinglu]

As a leader who carried a knife I was frowned upon by many.

Um.... I am a scout leader who always carries a knife on him. I attend many scouting events yearly to include the national jamboree from time to time: I never once have been frowned upon by any scouters, leadership, or parents for carrying a knife. We are huge on knife safety and don't hesitate to take "tote n' chips" away if we see unsafe actions.

Maybe it is just your neck of the woods that is anti-knife...

-OR- maybe it is the knife you are carrying? Bowie knives or butterfly knives might get a few frowns

 

[Carol]

Um.... I am a scout leader who always carries a knife on him. I attend many scouting events yearly to include the national jamboree from time to time: I never once have been frowned upon by any scouters, leadership, or parents for carrying a knife. We are huge on knife safety and don't hesitate to take "tote n' chips" away if we see unsafe actions.

Maybe it is just your neck of the woods that is anti-knife...

-OR- maybe it is the knife you are carrying? Bowie knives or butterfly knives might get a few frowns

I think its a difference between the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts

 

[girlbug2]

It does seem to me sometimes that people post stuff up and it comes out like 'look what the stupid Brits have done now' which is really annoying for a couple of reasons, firstly people who don't understand how a country works start criticising it based on what they know about their own country .....it's not as though we even have BOY Scouts!

Well I can't know what's in anybody else's mind here but when I read something like this about the UK and express disbelief/outrage it's not because I'm thinking the Brits are stupid. Quite the opposite. I view Brits as Cousins in a sense and I get annoyed at their government for their sake, just like I'd be annoyed if I found out that the parents of my cousins laid down some nonsensiscal rules for them.

(Yes I know it's not an actual law, I'm just sayin').

Also in the US we have both girl scouts and boy scouts, they're just segregated last I knew of.

 

[Blindside]

Also in the US we have both girl scouts and boy scouts, they're just segregated last I knew of.

They are segregated because they are run by seperate organizations.

There is an Explorer Scouts programs that is a subsidary of BSA that is coed and open to ages 14-20 IIRC. Explorers were usually associated with a profession (LE, fire, search and rescue, etc) but there were also High Adventure groups.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, it would have been an anti stupid thing...if it had happened!

Well, it is ripping us to pieces because the story simply isn't true. The newspaper is wrong! I don't see a problem because there isn't one unless you count the press getting their facts wrong...again.

So that paper is wrong. Ok. Considering that I -thought- that particular news source to be reliable, it seems we need to know what is a good source then.

Should we trust the Sun? No, because outside of Page 3, who reads it?
What about the BBC?
The Times?
That guy in the 24' scarf buying jellybabies at Mrs. Miggins Pie Shop?

Should we just make it board policy that anything having to do with England is off-limits to discussion?

Because it seems that any time any criticism of anything British comes up, no matter how slight, it seems I start to get a head ache, and we start to get reports of bashing, and other crap.

In this case Tez, you've got your knickers in a knot over comments on an article in an as far as we know reputable source, claiming we're bashing the mighty British Empire, when in fact we're simply bashing what to us is a pretty stupid idea and totally against what we see as Scouting, and in fact against it's shared origins which we got from your country. The fact you have sources that dispute the original story is great. I don't see the original source having printed a retraction yet though. So now, as often happens, we have 2 sources, both valid, both saying something different.

I don't see any Brit bashing here, if I did, I'd call it bluntly. See, to me, Brit-Bashing would be making a comment like this one : "maybe waiting until one reaches 2nd Lt. before explaining firearms is a poor way to train an army, but a good way to lose an empire and end up stuck on 1 single island off the butt end of France" or something similarly rude. But "Thats pretty dumb" is to me a far cry.

Your scouting program has evolved in a different direction than ours. That's fine. You don't allow kids in who don't swear allegiance to your Queen. That's ok. We ban gay kids and non-Christians from ours. Our kids get merit badges in archery (a fine English tradition), while yours have dropped that tradition in favor of something else.

Then again, there's the question of which scouting group. There are many.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_in_South_East_England
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Powell_Scouts'_Association
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Federation_of_Independent_Scouts

So, in the end, maybe both sources are right and one group of scouts are going the "super safe and protective" way, and others are still learning to use knives, shoot bows and build fires?

 

[shesulsa]

Um.... I am a scout leader who always carries a knife on him. I attend many scouting events yearly to include the national jamboree from time to time: I never once have been frowned upon by any scouters, leadership, or parents for carrying a knife. We are huge on knife safety and don't hesitate to take "tote n' chips" away if we see unsafe actions.

Maybe it is just your neck of the woods that is anti-knife...

-OR- maybe it is the knife you are carrying? Bowie knives or butterfly knives might get a few frowns

I think its a difference between the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts

The lady, she is rrrright. The pressure is heavy on GSUSA to ban knives, guns, archery, etcetera. I am one of few leaders I know who carries at least one knife. "What is the purpose," is the question I often get, though at every single campout I've been to, there has been some kind of need for a knife outside of cooking.

 

[shesulsa]

Tez, sorry, but I still don't see this as an anti-Brit thing. I see this as an anti-stupid thing, caveat being the article may or may not be right. We've had these discussions before on conflicting articles and it has nothing to do with nationality.

If I offended you in some way, please accept my apology and please know I have nothing against the UK. Ok?

 

[Archangel M]

It's not like anybody was saying that Britain is an interventionist, arrogant country, who thinks that it's superior to everybody else...relax. :uhyeah:

I say the same sort of stuff about our Canadian neighbors and their gun restrictions. I think it's a shame that such good people, with such beautiful wild country and a national history of "ruggedness" to match our Cowboys have such restrictive gun laws.

If we were were talking about the Ruskies or the Iranians I'd probably say "good...avoid teaching them that stuff all you want." I just hope that the UK doesn't go as wishy washy as mainland Europe has seem to gone (IMO). I've always admired the Brits for their "grit" and it seems like they are experiencing the same "PC diluting" as I think my own country is falling victim to.

 

[Xinglu]

The lady, she is rrrright. The pressure is heavy on GSUSA to ban knives, guns, archery, etcetera. I am one of few leaders I know who carries at least one knife. "What is the purpose," is the question I often get, though at every single campout I've been to, there has been some kind of need for a knife outside of cooking.

Somehow I missed that it was Girl Scouts. :uhyeah: I was really confused there for a minute! lol

 

[bekkilyn]

I think your experience belies your age, ma'am. As a leader who carried a knife I was frowned upon by many.

True, it was a good number of years ago, but still....

I'd go to girl scout camp in the summers for two weeks. No parents. Just camp counselors and such. In fact, I seem to recall getting a list of items that we were required to bring and a penknife was *always* on the list!

I'm wondering if girl scout camp is still allowed these days. After all, we started fires nearly every night (someone could get burned!) and went canoeing and swimming on/in the lake (someone could drown!), camped out each night in a tent-like contraption with mosquito netting (oh no, someone could drop dead due to no A/C or electricity in the summer!), AND had to use a *latrine* OMG! (Someone could fall in!) Not to mention having to use flashlights in the dark. (Have they banned the darkness yet, I wonder?)

Ugh, and I was complaining back then that the girl scouts were too prissy. I guess the kids nowadays are missing out on a lot of good stuff because our society has fallen so deeply into wussiness.

I can't imagine anyone being frowned upon for carrying a pocketknife for goodness sake. It's just insane crazy!