Breakfalls of Judo/Jujutsu

Discussion in 'Jujutsu / Judo' started by Rat, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. now disabled

    now disabled 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    121
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Ok you have learned to write T as you have learned to breakfall ... but surely like with all else in life to try and achieve the best you have to keep doing it and there may be more than one way of doing it ...just a thought
     
  2. dunc

    dunc Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    8
    In order to break fall against these kind of throws on hard floors you have to learn to get your heels on the floor first, followed by your flat back or buttocks

    It's fine to land sideways like the clip showed on mats, but this is really, really bad on concrete
    There are methods of break falling sideways - again it's key to get one of your feet onto the floor first and use one arm to absorb the force

    There are front break falls also - quite similar to the judo version, but with less slapping and more absorbing

    It's simple to develop this skill, you just need to work up to it carefully on hard floor

    I'm not sure about the idea of bouncing back up TBH - looks dangerous to me from the clip that you posted. In my styles we take the approach to either release the grips and roll away or continue the fight from the floor in some way
     
  3. pdg

    pdg Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    1,712
    Likes Received:
    430
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Sort of what I was thinking.

    So you can write "T".

    But how you write it differs in context.

    How you use it differs in context.

    How you say it changes in context.

    Sometimes it's good to go back to just "T"...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    183
    I find it interesting that when talking about taking falls on hard surfaces, we always talk about the "big slap" in a binary fashion. I am either going to slap the ground, very hard and bruise my arm and or hand... or I am not going to slap at all. I am not convinced that it is a binary thing. When taking a fall on a hard surface, one of the things that you can adjust, is the power of the slap, and how much of you arm is used in the slap.

    We all tend to agree that we want to maximize the surface area for the impact. Slapping with the arm, increases that surface area. The amount of power you put into the slap, can be variable.

    When practicing falls on a mat, you need to learn more than just how to slap hard. One of the more important things to work on with the slap, is how to make contact with the softer bits, while protecting the harder parts of your arm, like the elbow. That way, when taking your fall on a hard surface, you can give the slap more or less power as the situation dictates, but you should be able to slap harder without issue, as you have learned to slap in a way that does not impact the harder points of the arm.

    When I demo falls on hard surfaces, I choose how much of my arm impacts the ground, based on the fall I am taking. I have done no slapping, slapping with the whole arm, hand and fingers, and everything in between. (everything, but the fingers, everything but the hand, just the upper arm...) I find that by adjusting the power used and the amount of arm in the slap, I can take falls on hard surfaces quite easily with no bruising from most falls. I also have the ability to take some really hard falls and only really worry about the bruising in my fingers and occasionally elbow.

    Weirdly... in the times when I fell by surprise.... as in you are walking and realize that you have slipped and your feet are above your head and you are on the ground... those falls have been the softest falls I have ever taken, and I have no idea how much I slapped at all.

    Anyway, my point is that the slap is not either / or. You can vary the power used, and learn to use the proper surfaces. The more options the better.
     
  5. dunc

    dunc Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I think you make a fair point
    In my style we don’t do any slapping so given we can breakfall easily on hard floors I’m not convinced that accelerating my arm into the floor is worth the risks involved
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,148
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    The slap as I learned it is entirely soft surfaces of the arm, but can shut your hand down because of the speed with which the tips of the fingers (for instance) reach the ground. It leaves a nasty pain I've always referred to as a "nerve bruise" (though I doubt that's the technical term) that is painful to the touch, but goes away usually in less than a day.

    If I allow the upper arm - the triceps area - to make some contact with force (so, not really a slap anymore), I get most of the benefit, but nothing is impacting at the speed the hand would. Alternatively, I can reach out with my hand - rather than slapping - and let it be the lead point to distribute the impact over time. You see this latter in the "feather falls" taught in many Aikido schools, though I've never learned it to that extent. Those feather falls, IMO, are the best option for hard surfaces, when they are suitable to the situation.

    I guess I said all that to say I haven't found a speed of "slap" that works on hard surfaces without causing pain, numbness, and temporary malfunction in the hand.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,148
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Dunc, remind me what your primary style is, please.
     
  8. dunc

    dunc Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Bujinkan
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,148
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I'll have to go looking - I'm not familiar with the falls typically used in Bujinkan.
     
  10. Rat

    Rat Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I have never heard of it. :p


    another question out of the scope of this thread and maybe the knowledge of the participants, any of you know what breakfalls they do in systema? i dont know if its from Judo or other.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,148
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Bujinkan taijutsu (I think that’s the current full name) is the art Hatsumi teaches (and founded). It used to be called ninjutsu, mostly a marketing move.
     
  12. dunc

    dunc Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    8
    The systema breakfalls are OK on hard floors actually - I only trained in it for a couple of years, but the breakfalling techniques are good
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. dunc

    dunc Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is often referred to as ninjutsu, but when I started it was referred to as traditional Japanese martial arts which in my view is a better description (probably not such a good brand name ‘though)

    Here are some clips taken from class - please note that I just bung a camera in the corner of the room (generally for my own benefit) so the production quality isn’t good

    Basic methods here


    This is the basic method of taking the force from a hip throw


    You can see the idea of getting the feet down at work here also


    Hope this helps

    There are other videos on my feed and you can see the students working their breafalls on a hard(ish) floor

    When I started training we used to practice full diving rolls, front break falls from standing on a table etc all on hard floors. I have toned this down in my own class because it’s a big class with mixed ability and I’m worried about H&S, but any black belt at my dojo needs to be able to cope with full on throws, takedowns etc on concrete
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,148
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Those are pretty close to some of the adaptations I end up using on hard surfaces. The fall from the hip throw is pretty close to our back fall. I think these will give me some good material to work with. Thanks!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. dunc

    dunc Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    8
    The advice I give new students is to roll and break fall slowly from a low height on hard floors. If you catch a bone, then adjust your movement to make sure you're touching the floor with muscles rather than bone
    Build up from there increasing height and speed and adding in more complexity such as difficult angles, being thrown awkwardly etc

    Hope this is helpful - I genuinely believe that learning to break fall on hard floors is the most useful physical skill you'll learn in martial arts
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,148
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I used to practice all my falls and rolls in hotel rooms with that [saracasm] oh-so-fluffy carpeting [/sarcasm]. That did more for my ability to fall safely on mats than anything I ever did. Back in college, when I first started my NGA training (I'd already had some training in Judo, previously), I actually used my rolls on stage in a musical, when they wanted some tumbling.
     
  17. now disabled

    now disabled 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    121
    Trophy Points:
    43

    Ummm dare I ask what you were doing in hotel rooms that required break falls.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,148
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Really, you don't want to know. :oops:
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  19. now disabled

    now disabled 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    121
    Trophy Points:
    43
    No I thought not lol
     
  20. PiedmontChun

    PiedmontChun Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    114
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Regarding the hand slap: I was coached to slap the mat, which is the norm in most Judo schools. It does seem to help take some pressure off the rest of your body, especially when you are hitting the mat over and over and over during a class. Would I slap the concrete if I fell on concrete? Probably not, but if I was falling on pavement in a real world situation (versus going out and intentionally training on concrete), I would argue that it is not going to be a textbook break fall anyway, but just enough of an instinctive breakfall to maybe save my butt.

    Once in a Judo tournament, I was thrown by a 230 lb brown belt so fast and with such force, I was unable to slap the mat at all. But the fundamentals of a decent breakfall were still there - chin tucked to chest, exhale, relax, taking more of the fall with the shoulders then the lower back, heels to the ground like shock absorbers. I've also had a clumsy fall on stairs here and there in recent years and firmly believe my bit of judo helped fall without hurting myself.

    One of the biggest things people do wrong when falling is not tuck their head in to protect it from, or trying to post an arm (sure fire way to break an arm). Training break falls, regardless of a hand slap or not, will break those habits.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page