arnisador said:
In my Dojang, the minimum time in which you can earn first dan is five years.
In my Dojang, the minimum time in which you can earn first dan is five years.
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dosandojang
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My Grand Master says that Doju Kee told him that he could wear either. Since I am under him, he says that I can do the same thing (I practice both TSD MDK and SBD MDK). I have one of each...
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Len Losik
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Hello All,
Grandmaster Hwang Kee began awarding black (colored) belts about 1 1/2 years after he began including Okinawan techniques into Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan from books he had at his place of employment. He awarded black colored belts to his senior students until about 1968 when he began thinking about changing Tang Soo Do to be more "Korean". He switched to dark blue colored belts because he was receiving some criticism from his peers since he never tested for the Okinawan black belts he was awarding to his senior students. Check it out in his book, "The History of Moo Duk Kwan" available from his org.
Best Regards,
Grandmaster Hwang Kee began awarding black (colored) belts about 1 1/2 years after he began including Okinawan techniques into Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan from books he had at his place of employment. He awarded black colored belts to his senior students until about 1968 when he began thinking about changing Tang Soo Do to be more "Korean". He switched to dark blue colored belts because he was receiving some criticism from his peers since he never tested for the Okinawan black belts he was awarding to his senior students. Check it out in his book, "The History of Moo Duk Kwan" available from his org.
Best Regards,
OP
dosandojang
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Thank You Len!!!! I Would Love To Ask You Some Questions In Email!!!
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Galvatron
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I think that the reasoning behind the inception of the midnight blue belt is closer to Mr. Losik's story than it is anything philosophical.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Before I say anything else, let me remind people that I am NOT a TSD practitioner. I would also remind people that I mean no disrespect to the art or its practitioners. That said may I state that IMVHO this discussion is counter-productive to the unification of the KMA. Please consider the following.
1.) Perhaps we KMA practitioners are better served by LESS variance in our standards. It is pretty apparent that the guep/dan system is going to be with us. If that is true then I think it behooves us to stay with a single color system with a agreed-upon range of colored belts for gueppies and a simple single width BB for under-ranks (1-3) and a double width for teachers. Oh, and the red/brown belts? Merge the two colors and make an auburn brown belt the uniform color.
2.) Perhaps we KMA practitioners need a single uniform with the pull-over v-neck and "gi" pants for sport and the traditional do-bok for MA/SD arts. I would even go one farther and state that rather than use the hakama of the Japanese arts as the defacto weapons uniform for Korean weapons work, I believe that something closer to the han-bok style of uniform (such as the Hae Dong Kumdo people use) should be adopted.
3.) Finally I think people should be dissuaded from inventing new uniforms, color schemes and using uniforms as an advertising platform. I also think that people need to shy away from designing uniforms that seem to invoke some cosmic interpretation of history and stay with the basics instead. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
1.) Perhaps we KMA practitioners are better served by LESS variance in our standards. It is pretty apparent that the guep/dan system is going to be with us. If that is true then I think it behooves us to stay with a single color system with a agreed-upon range of colored belts for gueppies and a simple single width BB for under-ranks (1-3) and a double width for teachers. Oh, and the red/brown belts? Merge the two colors and make an auburn brown belt the uniform color.
2.) Perhaps we KMA practitioners need a single uniform with the pull-over v-neck and "gi" pants for sport and the traditional do-bok for MA/SD arts. I would even go one farther and state that rather than use the hakama of the Japanese arts as the defacto weapons uniform for Korean weapons work, I believe that something closer to the han-bok style of uniform (such as the Hae Dong Kumdo people use) should be adopted.
3.) Finally I think people should be dissuaded from inventing new uniforms, color schemes and using uniforms as an advertising platform. I also think that people need to shy away from designing uniforms that seem to invoke some cosmic interpretation of history and stay with the basics instead. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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Galvatron
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I'm a practitioner of a Korean art, but I am not Korean. I don't have that overactive sense of Korean nationalism that most (that I've met) seem to suffer from.
I personally couldn't care any less than I already do as to what color the uniform a school uses, what belt system they use, whether or not it's Japanese in origin, etc. So long as the technique stays sound, and stays true to the origin of the art, while adapting to the modern world.
Granted some of the uniforms I've seen are outright ridiculous in my eyes, but who am I to criticize the way another person does things?
My $0.02
I personally couldn't care any less than I already do as to what color the uniform a school uses, what belt system they use, whether or not it's Japanese in origin, etc. So long as the technique stays sound, and stays true to the origin of the art, while adapting to the modern world.
Granted some of the uniforms I've seen are outright ridiculous in my eyes, but who am I to criticize the way another person does things?
My $0.02
Kodanjaclay
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Bruce,
Since you are not a TSD guy, the belt actually represents something. It represents the sky and the infinite growth possible. Black is also viewed as the color of death and decay, two things that happen when we stop growing.
This is not what I would consider a new scheme, as it has been around for a number of years.
Since you are not a TSD guy, the belt actually represents something. It represents the sky and the infinite growth possible. Black is also viewed as the color of death and decay, two things that happen when we stop growing.
This is not what I would consider a new scheme, as it has been around for a number of years.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Frank:
".....Since you are not a TSD guy, the belt actually represents something. It represents the sky and the infinite growth possible. Black is also viewed as the color of death and decay, two things that happen when we stop growing....."
Yes, that is why I made the comment about making cosmic connections with the unifroms and their design. Shamanism, Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism have all had their impact on the Korean culture. Throw in numerology and geomancy and who knows where this stuff would stop. Imagine having a tournament cancelled because the appropriate place in which resides optimum cosmic energy could not be found. And while we are talking about death and decay I remember that white is the color of grieving but that does not stop the Japanese from using white do-gi. Of course the Midnight Blue belt could also respresent Fidelity as it does in our culture. Or maybe the depth of learning as in "the deep blue sea". Why not put rhinestones on the belt to indicate rank as a symbol of increasing purity? How about all-red uniforms to symbolize Chinese origins but cut like Han-bok to represent Korean training and the colored belt to symbolize Japanese influence? And why not make the top belt Yellow signifying that one has truely become one with Oriental culture? This stuff could go on forever and it seems to serve no purpose except that people need to feel and be regarded as unique. And this I find strange as I was always led to believe that we trained to subdue our passions and need to express our ego. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
".....Since you are not a TSD guy, the belt actually represents something. It represents the sky and the infinite growth possible. Black is also viewed as the color of death and decay, two things that happen when we stop growing....."
Yes, that is why I made the comment about making cosmic connections with the unifroms and their design. Shamanism, Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism have all had their impact on the Korean culture. Throw in numerology and geomancy and who knows where this stuff would stop. Imagine having a tournament cancelled because the appropriate place in which resides optimum cosmic energy could not be found. And while we are talking about death and decay I remember that white is the color of grieving but that does not stop the Japanese from using white do-gi. Of course the Midnight Blue belt could also respresent Fidelity as it does in our culture. Or maybe the depth of learning as in "the deep blue sea". Why not put rhinestones on the belt to indicate rank as a symbol of increasing purity? How about all-red uniforms to symbolize Chinese origins but cut like Han-bok to represent Korean training and the colored belt to symbolize Japanese influence? And why not make the top belt Yellow signifying that one has truely become one with Oriental culture? This stuff could go on forever and it seems to serve no purpose except that people need to feel and be regarded as unique. And this I find strange as I was always led to believe that we trained to subdue our passions and need to express our ego. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Kodanjaclay
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Bruce,
Why are you criticizing an art you do not practice? This is the accepted custom and TSD people are very proud of it. There are very few exams that test one as much as the test that allows one to don the red stripe in the center... and after which all of them look the same.
I am not sure of your intent, but I find your comments insulting. Hwang Kee chose the color for TSD, and his decision has been honored by many in TSD today. He is now deceased and it is disrespectful to insinuate anything other than what he intended.
This is not a Japanese forum, so I will not address Japanese custom. Tang Soo Do is based on the philosophy of No Ja and places special emphasis on training patterns related.
Rather than criticize, and read, why not try actually training in the art? Try Tang Soo Do. You might find it enjoyable, and then you might not.
Remember too, that the midnight dhee is a reminder of what Tang Soo Do people are trying to accomplish. If you cannot accept that, that is fine, but at least don't disrespect those to whom it does mean something.
Why are you criticizing an art you do not practice? This is the accepted custom and TSD people are very proud of it. There are very few exams that test one as much as the test that allows one to don the red stripe in the center... and after which all of them look the same.
I am not sure of your intent, but I find your comments insulting. Hwang Kee chose the color for TSD, and his decision has been honored by many in TSD today. He is now deceased and it is disrespectful to insinuate anything other than what he intended.
This is not a Japanese forum, so I will not address Japanese custom. Tang Soo Do is based on the philosophy of No Ja and places special emphasis on training patterns related.
Rather than criticize, and read, why not try actually training in the art? Try Tang Soo Do. You might find it enjoyable, and then you might not.
Remember too, that the midnight dhee is a reminder of what Tang Soo Do people are trying to accomplish. If you cannot accept that, that is fine, but at least don't disrespect those to whom it does mean something.
OP
Galvatron
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I don't find his remarks remotely insulting, I see them as someone stating his opinion and take on a situation.
Personally, my Grandmaster got his BLACK belt before the switch to the Midnight Blue belt was made, and he has always issued Black Belts to his Dan holders, even when he was affiliated with the Moo Duk Kwan.
Normally I don't tend to agree with what Mr. Losik has to say, and in many circumstances his remarks and contentions outright irritate me, but I am inclined to believe that the truth behind the creation of the Midnight Blue belt is much closer to what he stated it was.
:idunno:
Personally, my Grandmaster got his BLACK belt before the switch to the Midnight Blue belt was made, and he has always issued Black Belts to his Dan holders, even when he was affiliated with the Moo Duk Kwan.
Normally I don't tend to agree with what Mr. Losik has to say, and in many circumstances his remarks and contentions outright irritate me, but I am inclined to believe that the truth behind the creation of the Midnight Blue belt is much closer to what he stated it was.
:idunno:
Kodanjaclay
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Mr. Losik's comments cannot be viewed as authoritative. He has consistently refused to provide sources.
I have heard many stories; however, the one regarding the sky and infinity makes sense when viewed with the writings of Hwang Kee.
Anyone who does TSD is free to wear black or blue. Those who subscribe to one philosophy wear one, and the others wear a different one. I doubt it is to "be different". I don the midnight blue as well, and am proud to have earned the right to wear it.
I have heard many stories; however, the one regarding the sky and infinity makes sense when viewed with the writings of Hwang Kee.
Anyone who does TSD is free to wear black or blue. Those who subscribe to one philosophy wear one, and the others wear a different one. I doubt it is to "be different". I don the midnight blue as well, and am proud to have earned the right to wear it.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Frank:
No one I know is being insulting or disrespectful. I mentioned at the beginning that I do not practice TSD but I still have an opinion about the use of Black Belt versus Blue Belt. If you have a Blue Belt and are proud of it, and want to wear it, and believe in it and whatever it represents to you, go with Gawd. For myself, I take a different view of things. Should it ever come down to a discussion regarding who is respecting what art and in what way, I figure Hapkido has probably taken the worst beating over time of any Korean art, but that is for another string and another time. In the meantime I am trying to remember where it is written that I am mandated to reflect the commonly held beliefs when somebody asks me to comment. You will recall I think that I do not worship at the feet of GM Ji, I also believe that Chinese influences in Korean arts are getting short shrift and that traditional KMA require the study of hyung. All of these positions are less than popular, as has been my experience. Nobody has said that you are wrong for wearing a Midnight Blue belt or for invoking some cosmology to justify it. For my part I think the process is counter-productive to KMA and borders on the contrived. But thats just me opinion. I could be wrong. :idunno:
Best Wishes,
Bruce
No one I know is being insulting or disrespectful. I mentioned at the beginning that I do not practice TSD but I still have an opinion about the use of Black Belt versus Blue Belt. If you have a Blue Belt and are proud of it, and want to wear it, and believe in it and whatever it represents to you, go with Gawd. For myself, I take a different view of things. Should it ever come down to a discussion regarding who is respecting what art and in what way, I figure Hapkido has probably taken the worst beating over time of any Korean art, but that is for another string and another time. In the meantime I am trying to remember where it is written that I am mandated to reflect the commonly held beliefs when somebody asks me to comment. You will recall I think that I do not worship at the feet of GM Ji, I also believe that Chinese influences in Korean arts are getting short shrift and that traditional KMA require the study of hyung. All of these positions are less than popular, as has been my experience. Nobody has said that you are wrong for wearing a Midnight Blue belt or for invoking some cosmology to justify it. For my part I think the process is counter-productive to KMA and borders on the contrived. But thats just me opinion. I could be wrong. :idunno:
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Kodanjaclay
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Bruce,
I suspect you are.
I suspect you are.
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Len Losik
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Please feel free to contact me at [email protected]dosandojang said:
Midnight Blue is a philosphy. That is it.
As to someone comment on Unifing the Korean Arts, that is one whole other can of worms. I for one, do not want to be lumped together with other Korean Arts. I do Tang Soo Do. Not TKD, not Hopkido. I do Tang Soo Do, I dont want the same belt system, I dont want them looking anything like mine, and I dont want to look anything like them, because we are different systems, we are different arts, and we have different philophies, and idiologies.
BUT, we are all brothers and sisters in the martial arts. (Not just Korean art brothers, we are all brothers and sisters in ALL Martial Arts)
I just wanted to state, and you can pretty much see how strongly I feel on this, about that unification thing.
Namaste,
Michael Tabone
TANG SOO!!!!
As to someone comment on Unifing the Korean Arts, that is one whole other can of worms. I for one, do not want to be lumped together with other Korean Arts. I do Tang Soo Do. Not TKD, not Hopkido. I do Tang Soo Do, I dont want the same belt system, I dont want them looking anything like mine, and I dont want to look anything like them, because we are different systems, we are different arts, and we have different philophies, and idiologies.
BUT, we are all brothers and sisters in the martial arts. (Not just Korean art brothers, we are all brothers and sisters in ALL Martial Arts)
I just wanted to state, and you can pretty much see how strongly I feel on this, about that unification thing.
Namaste,
Michael Tabone
TANG SOO!!!!
Kodanjaclay
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Well said Mike. This is exactly what I was referring to, even if it is "contrived".
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dosandojang
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I back Master Clay. [font=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][/font]
[font=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]FWIW:[/font]
[font=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman](The MDK organisation was founded on 9th November, 1945 by Grand Master Hwang Kee (Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee). The first MDK school was opened on the same date at Yong San Ku, Seoul, Korea.
The MDK was founded principally to contribute to human development in Weh Gong (external power), Neh Gong (internal power) and Shim Gong (spiritual power). This MDK philosophy is based on Do (Tao) and the teachings of No Ja ( Lao Tzu).
[/font]
[font=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]FWIW:[/font]
[font=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman](The MDK organisation was founded on 9th November, 1945 by Grand Master Hwang Kee (Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee). The first MDK school was opened on the same date at Yong San Ku, Seoul, Korea.
The MDK was founded principally to contribute to human development in Weh Gong (external power), Neh Gong (internal power) and Shim Gong (spiritual power). This MDK philosophy is based on Do (Tao) and the teachings of No Ja ( Lao Tzu).
[/font]
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Len Losik
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Dear Galvatron,
Thank you for pointing out our differences of opinion. I am highly published author so there is a much higher chance of coming across something I have published than something from those that choose sit on the side lines and throw stones at others that do. I have published more than 20 martial arts articles in 5 magazines and 15 books on martial arts. I am a physicist by education and employment, an electrical engineer by education and employment, I have earned a BS in Physics and Math, and an MS in Electrical Engineering. I'm currently working on an MA degree in Education simultaneously with a teaching certificate. I have trained in TSD for 27 years, earning black belts in both MDKTSD and TKD at 2 different schools.
Please feel free to contact me at [email protected] regarding my objectionable material.
Sincerely,
Len Losik
Thank you for pointing out our differences of opinion. I am highly published author so there is a much higher chance of coming across something I have published than something from those that choose sit on the side lines and throw stones at others that do. I have published more than 20 martial arts articles in 5 magazines and 15 books on martial arts. I am a physicist by education and employment, an electrical engineer by education and employment, I have earned a BS in Physics and Math, and an MS in Electrical Engineering. I'm currently working on an MA degree in Education simultaneously with a teaching certificate. I have trained in TSD for 27 years, earning black belts in both MDKTSD and TKD at 2 different schools.
Please feel free to contact me at [email protected] regarding my objectionable material.
Sincerely,
Len Losik
Kodanjaclay
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Len,
He was not trying to insult you as far as I saw. He is merely saying that he agrees with you in regards to the creation of the blue belt.
He was not trying to insult you as far as I saw. He is merely saying that he agrees with you in regards to the creation of the blue belt.
