Black vs. Midnight Blue

[Shinzu]

the information about the midnight blue belt is based on grandmaster hwang kee's philosophy and it is also a korean tradition that the midnight blue belt be worn.

i have seen very high ranks wear a midnight blue belt with a solid red stripe through it. a red and black checkered belt. black with two solid red stripes through it.

it all depends what your organization has set forth.

i like to wear the midnight blue because people are not used to seeing it.

by asking you "are you a black belt?" goes to show you how little of TSD they really know and understand.

 

[TLH3rdDan]

here is my smart a$$ reply to this question.... no im not a black belt im a martial artist this piece of cloth around my waist is a black belt... just thought i would throw that out there

 

[Shinzu]

hee hee.. point well said TLH3rdDan

 

[rana_hapkido_panama2002]

:asian: hi you all and be blessed.
I am Ramon Navarro from the country of Panama and besides I teach Hapkido for the past 24 years I am a 3rd Dan in TangSooDo and a member to the ITF or International TangSooDo Federation since 1975.
I learned from my teacher SabomNim Ellis, Prospero that the belt color system is based on nature: White represent the winter where the snow represents the purity of the winter snow, were before life begins it melts to begin life;
Yellow is the simbol of earth shoing its being in excistance after the snow has melted and it represents the begining of knowledge;
Orange represents the power that reflects the sunrays shining on earth and it is when the student begins to understand its grouth;
Green is the strength that thesuns rays hiting the earth has given the ground and it shows that things are begining to grow in it is when the student begins to understand the meaning of its art and represents the green grass; Then Red belt represents the flowering of the knowledge the student has achieved in his training and in nature it is when the flowers come out to expres the beauty of nature. and
Blue or midnight blue : This in nature represents the blue sky, spetially at night that if it would have been Black you would not see the stars in the night sky and since you can see them - also represents the night danger from its darkness; this means that in Midnight-Blue you are now seeying the danger in it ( the art of Tang Soo Do ) and and is the real begining of the training so since Black would be the last experience a human being would have in life then for respect to the atr and the teachers you would in humility use a Real Dark Blue Belt.
Also
Red is the representative color for life = blood it means the material world and the
Blue represent the feeling that one experienses iat this level, it represents the mind the non-material world so its meaning is for love !
This is why the master levels wear a wide Black belt with a trim in red in its middle representing that in the material world ( red ) in life there is now the danger of its knowledge represented by the wide black surrounding the red.

 

[Shinzu]

excellent info.. thanx rana!

 

[master dave]

greetings friends" i use both. the black with red for teaching, and the midnight blue for formal events and testings. the story behind the midnight blue belt goes as follows, hwang kee while one night looked up to the sky, it was midnight blue! as he looked at the stars he imagined all the possibilities for tang soo do. so i think its ok to use either black or midnight blue. i choose to use both. TANG SOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Shinzu]

i guess it is more of the philosophy that attracts me to the midnght blue. black is more common. both are accepted but i feel the midnight blue holds more meaning.

 

[arnisador]

Do any of our newer members have thoughts on this issue?

 

[mtabone]

The night sky goes on forever and ever, just like our learning, hence the use of Midnight Blue in place of the Black.
Kwan Jhang Nim Hwang Kee is the one who originated the use of the MidNight Blue Belt in Tang Soo Do.

When people ask me " What Rank Are You?" I say I am a 3rd degree Midnight Blue belt, but it is the same equivelent as black belt, its just a philosophical difference. Most of the time they just leave it alone. Sometimes though, people get interested, as you can see from this thread.

I for one, think it is an important distinction.

In the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, we use White, Orange, Green, Red, and Midnight Blue.


I never heared of the danger of the darkness of the belt that is interesting. Though for our orange belt, we say it is the time when there is still snow, but there are the first blades of grass, and green starting to show its self. The beggining of potential. Green is spring and a deeper understanding of potential and growth. Red is summer, time for the Fire energy (Weh Gung) to come out, time for intensity and high energy. Midnight Blue, is autum, (Neh Gung) water energy, time for calm, and nearing the begging of the cycle again. This time in Maturity (Autum), one holds the Dan Rank, and the belt with grace and honor. Relizing that Now that they are MidnightBlue belts, they are finaly students.....


Tang Soo!!!
Michael Tabone

 

[rana_hapkido_panama2002]

Hi all and to you Dave, be blessed.

You are write when you mention that it was some time that GM Hwang Ki looking at the sky one night thingking about SooBahk/TangSoo Do that he idealised the idea of learning and that the Blue would be his idea and choise.

This is sort of a coinsidence since I when was studying TangSooDo; my techer would say that if you looked at the sky that the night if being Black you could not see the stars, makes snece and backs up the idea that Mr. Kee, HwangKi being the fouder that he would shoose this as a representation of the ranking system.

The reason being as I herard was that if you were just starting to learn when becoming a Black Belt that it Black representing the color of Death that this would mean that you could not learn any more once you made your Cho Dan or Black Belt because death means that once you achiev it there is no more experience to have and live it. Therefore the dark midnight-Blue was used to represent that the learning could continue.

HAP/TangSoo

Ramon Navarro
HapKiDo SabomNim
International Director :
Song Moo HapKiDo International
Panama Republic of Panama

Ps/ I am Ramon Navarro, a Hapkido Teacher now for 26 years and I am from the country of Panama. Welcomes anyone to the group on Korean martial art of self defense, benefits and its contradictions for the benefit of knowledge sharing and interchange experiences about all related with this art. All that we ask is respect. We will except members that speaks in English : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/songmookwanhapkidopanamaandtheworld/
and in Spanish : http://espanol.groups.yahoo.com/group/SongMooHapKiDoInternacional_Beneficios/

HAP

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Shinzu
the phlosophy behind it is that wearing black is considered a finishing color, the end, or completion. midnight blue is the closest color in relation to black but it symbolizes that there is still more to learn and that yourself nor your art are perfect by any means.

it also reminds you that there is always more you can add to it were black is complete.

i tend to agree with these statements but many people are ore used to seeing students with black belt rather than midnight blue.

Hi, I'm not in TSD but I looked into this once myself because I thought the Midnight Blue thing might be a scam. I found out essentially that the creator of the art set it up this way on purpose. I believe this is also reported in the Encyclopedia of Martial Arts.

However, if I am not mistaken this Midnight Blue vs Black thing stated by Shinzu is how Mr. Parker felt about Black and Red and he therefore designated Red as the "finishing color." Mr. Parker also required Black Belts to wear their Red Stripes and I presume this was to reinforce that there was more Black than Red.

I also understand that this is why he set up 10th as 2 "bars" with Black between them indicating that there was always room for improvement (more obvious with 2 bars than one solid red bar or a Red Belt or a Red and White Belt either I guess).

So I think Mr. Parker shared this philosophy about "not being done" as well.

As a matter of fact, in a video I did Mr. Bryan Hawkins says that Mr. Parker once told him that Mr. Parker himself learned something new about the art every day and that Mr. Parker thought that others out there should be able to learn something new every day as well.
:asian:

 

[TallAdam85]

seems i had a post just like this LoL

 

[NYCRonin]

30 years ago, I was one of the first 'teenagers' to earn a 'dun' ranking in TSD/MDK. The belt i was awarded was a belt handed down to me from my teacher...which came to him from his teacher...which came to himfro GM Hwang Kee. This tattered and worn belt was midnight blue (and wider than the general B.Belt).
Although I was taught the reason for that color (as opposed to black) it did not really matter.
Midnight blue, black, polka -dot...if the belt color really supercedes the relationships we might have to each other - then the 'belts' arent worth the colored cloth their made of. the art really is so much more important - as are our relationship to one another.
Didnt really matter 30 years ago - does it really matter today?

(If I wore any belt today to demonstrate 'rank' - the core color would be midnight blue).

 

[Galvatron]

What Ronin said!
Although, I might take issue with a polk-dot belt!

 

[arnisador]

I'm almost surprised that more arts don't use the midnight blue idea!

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

I could not care less about the blackness or the deepest Blue belt as long as it is not like this guy...

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

or this guy...

 

[NYCRonin]

"Ah, what fools these mortals be'
- Oberon "A Midsummers Nights a dream"
The Bard of Avon would have had such fun with these subjects.

 

[NYCRonin]

Please pardon this fools typo's above - and I think it was actually a quote from Puck. The 'edit' function was not working.

 

[Len Losik]

Grandmaster Hwang Kee originally awarded black belts. He began awarding them in 1948 according to his book, "The History of the Moo Duk Kwan". Also according to the same book, Grandmaster Hwang Kee never tested for a black belt himself but began awarding them anyway in 1948. He received great criticism from other Korean Kwan leaders that had earned black belts before teaching Tang Soo Do, for awarding black belts even though he never tested for one. Finally, around 1968, he decided to stop awarding black belts to which he was receiving criticsm for, and award a color belt that no one else was using and he could then specify the testing requirements for. His choice of dark blue for the color may be consistant with the color belts that the Hwarang warriors wore as seen in old paintings still in existance.

Best Regards,

Len Losik