Black History Month is Ridiculous?

[arnisador]

No, what I said was that the single entity MOST responsible for the Atlantic slave trade IS the British Crown, an entity that is continuous as well.

Again...are apologies rationed? We won't apologize until they apologize first? What kind of moral position is that?

It only applies if we accept it...and I don't. So, again, arnis, you can argue until you are blue in the face that WE owe an apology, and it really amounts to nothing except your personal opinion that we should apologize dressed up in a clever argument.

In fact, I've said just the opposite: I don't see what point an apology would serve, and don't find myself in favor of it. It's being requested principally as a first step in seeking reparations.

I agree with your conclusion, but not with your reasoning. But you're too fired up on defeating a ludicorus non-argument that no one has advanced ("You owned slaves so you should apologize!") that you continue to argue that point...and assign others to holding that position for the convenience of your argument. No one believes that, and I don't favor the apology. I just think your reasons for not favoring an apology are shallow.

 

[arnisador]

Slavery was a state issue, not a federal issue.

The federal govt. gave the states the right to regulate it, but the while it was largely handled at the stste level, there was federal involvement.

Slavery ended 160 years ago, I think you've lost the argument that it is an injustice that DIDN'T happen in the distant past.

When did I make that argument?

You're arguing with someone else, apparently. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[Cryozombie]

If anyone thinks they were harmed by being born here and wants money for it, lets instead compensate them by giving them a ticket back to where their ancestors probably came from.

Yeah, can I get a ticket back to Ireland? That would be great. God knows I cant afford to go back on my own.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Obviously most of you posting are not convinced an apology would serve any real purpose other than to grow the problem. Since this is a martial arts site I would like to try a martial arts analogy to support an apology. The concept is "purposefull compliance". Why try it? We should try it because "purposfull defiance" has proven to be quite polarizing. Being that the people are the government, the object of the game is to be successfull. If we comply with reasonable demands with a "meet us halfway" approach, the money spent would actualy serve to control and , yes, overwhelm. Shirking personal responsibility and telling those falling behind to simply buck up is poor path so far. If things get worse we could always go back to not caring.
Sean

 

[Cryozombie]

Being that the people are the government, the object of the game is to be successfull.
Sean

The people are the government?

Ha, my freind, what country do you live in? I live in the U.S. where the CORPORATIONS are the Government.

Or, I suppose the People with the kind of cash the Corporations have.

 

[Touch Of Death]

... by the corporations, for the corporations. With liberty and justice for all...

"who can afford it!" Jello Biafra
Sean

 

[Martial Tucker]

okay
ur words now are more comforting, kinda..
is it time yet to propose what could be done (maybe in the next 500 years) to end racism?

Good luck on that one. Unfortunately, it is human nature for those who are insecure with their own lives/identity to feel threatened by/fear/resent those who are some how different from them. This goes far beyond just racial issues.

You are talking about changing very centrally-held attitudes, both conscious and sub-conscious, within a huge percentage of the population, and those attitudes exist on "both sides of the fence".

Interesting how these attitudes seemingly went away for a (too) short period of time right after 9/11. It took a major National tragedy to shock us back to the reality that we are all brothers & sisters, which did seem to unify us for a few weeks. I remember strangers holding doors open for each other, and many other random acts of kindness that have long since faded away as the pain of that period faded. For a short time, there was a sense of brotherhood that I had never seen before in my 45 years. I wondered at the time how long it would last......Now I wonder (and fear) what it will take to get it back.

 

[Cryozombie]

... by the corporations, for the corporations. With liberty and justice for all...

"who can afford it!" Jello Biafra
Sean

Exactly.



There's always room for Jello, Unless you are the Dead Kennedys.

 

[7starmantis]

Obviously most of you posting are not convinced an apology would serve any real purpose other than to grow the problem. Since this is a martial arts site I would like to try a martial arts analogy to support an apology. The concept is "purposefull compliance". Why try it? We should try it because "purposfull defiance" has proven to be quite polarizing. Being that the people are the government, the object of the game is to be successfull. If we comply with reasonable demands with a "meet us halfway" approach, the money spent would actualy serve to control and , yes, overwhelm. Shirking personal responsibility and telling those falling behind to simply buck up is poor path so far. If things get worse we could always go back to not caring.
Sean

Its a fair analogy, but your use of certain terms are interesting. You use the term "meet us halfway". Who exactly are you using the word "us" to describe? See, the point is that even in your post you must seperate and devide in order to support the notion of an apology. I dont see anyone here who could be guilty of "shirking personal responsibility" unless of course you are implying poeple living today do carry some responsibility for slavery. I also dont see anyone here telling those faling behind to simply "buck up". Everyone here is in favor of programs to help, but are simply pointing out what actually helps and what doesn't. Why the tunnel vision and blinding focus on one answer to a complex question?

Once again, the bottom line is that supporting an apology is supporting divisional lines between "us" or "Americans". That is the problem I'm refering to. To cast blame or guilt, we must seperate us once again by race, why can't we just move past that and find an answer that doesn't further add to the seperation that causes racism?

7sm

 

[Touch Of Death]

Its a fair analogy, but your use of certain terms are interesting. You use the term "meet us halfway". Who exactly are you using the word "us" to describe? See, the point is that even in your post you must seperate and devide in order to support the notion of an apology. I dont see anyone here who could be guilty of "shirking personal responsibility" unless of course you are implying poeple living today do carry some responsibility for slavery. I also dont see anyone here telling those faling behind to simply "buck up". Everyone here is in favor of programs to help, but are simply pointing out what actually helps and what doesn't. Why the tunnel vision and blinding focus on one answer to a complex question?

Once again, the bottom line is that supporting an apology is supporting divisional lines between "us" or "Americans". That is the problem I'm refering to. To cast blame or guilt, we must seperate us once again by race, why can't we just move past that and find an answer that doesn't further add to the seperation that causes racism?

7sm

The reality of the situation is that an us against them mentality exists. We both want the same thing however facing the reality that there is a cultural victim mentality that must be addressed. Denying it is not going to help. If you read some of these post feelings can get pretty heated about the issue. If you want a sub-culture (that exists... honest) an apology in a tangeble form could spark that bond. Members of this sub-culture must feel they have a stake in the dominant culture to want to be a part of it. Again we all benefit from the entity Known as the United States. It was built with slavery and over running existing populations. If problems exist let the republic deal with them. Far right and left opinions must be compromised just as they always do. I doubt the doing nothing approach is gonna work.
Sean

 

[7starmantis]

The reality of the situation is that an us against them mentality exists. We both want the same thing however facing the reality that there is a cultural victim mentality that must be addressed. Denying it is not going to help. If you read some of these post feelings can get pretty heated about the issue. If you want a sub-culture (that exists... honest) an apology in a tangeble form could spark that bond. Members of this sub-culture must feel they have a stake in the dominant culture to want to be a part of it.
Sean

I disagree completely. Just because an "us against them" attitude may exist is no reason to fuel it. By the way, whom are you refering to when saying "us agaisnt them"? I am one of the minorities and I dont have that attitude. Maybe its no so much race groups that have that attitude anymore?
I think to deny is to accept its existence and purposfully ignore it....that is not what I'm implying. No one is saying deny its existence, but dont make further action that fuels its existence or longevity. What source are you using to say an apology could "spark that bond"? Members of what sub-culture? See, this is the veyr problem I'm refering to. In order to support these things we have to support dividing lines. I think us accepting each other as people rather than anyting to do with race is a much bigger step forward than some ambiguous appology from people who dont mean it or have nothing staked in it....not to mention being from a people who are part of these races being appologized to.

Again, the problem with the apology is who does it come from and to whom is it aimed? If "we" apologize to "us" shouldn't "we" apologize to women? Shoudn't we apologize to every nation we have crossed? Where does it stop? Shoudn't the african americans publically show appreciation to "us" for stopping racism? See, this only fules a viscious cycle that inadvertantly (I assume) places blame, creates contempt and seperates people.

I think thre are much better ways to use our resources, time, and ....drumroll....money.

7sm

 

[sgtmac_46]

The federal govt. gave the states the right to regulate it, but the while it was largely handled at the stste level, there was federal involvement.

Actually, the states existed BEFORE the Federal Government. In the beginning, the states had far more power than the federal government.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The reality of the situation is that an us against them mentality exists.

Yes, perpetrated by those, like yourself, who continue to say 'us and them' rather than dealing with people as individuals. The very definition of racism is defining a persons worth as being based upon race. Stop doing that, and you'll have taken a substantial step toward ending racism.

We both want the same thing however facing the reality that there is a cultural victim mentality that must be addressed. Denying it is not going to help. If you read some of these post feelings can get pretty heated about the issue. If you want a sub-culture (that exists... honest) an apology in a tangeble form could spark that bond. Members of this sub-culture must feel they have a stake in the dominant culture to want to be a part of it. Again we all benefit from the entity Known as the United States. It was built with slavery and over running existing populations. If problems exist let the republic deal with them. Far right and left opinions must be compromised just as they always do. I doubt the doing nothing approach is gonna work.
Sean

So we compromise with idiocy by leaning a little more toward it, to meet it half way? I think not. The idea that anyone alive today owes an apology for something that occurred when none of us was alive is a product of a mentality that merely seeks to put it's foot in the door for a monetary claim, nothing more. It's racist, it's divisive, and it's cynical.

I'll save my compromising for something more worthy, thank you.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yes, perpetrated by those, like yourself, who continue to say 'us and them' rather than dealing with people as individuals. The very definition of racism is defining a persons worth as being based upon race. Stop doing that, and you'll have taken a substantial step toward ending racism.

So we compromise with idiocy by leaning a little more toward it, to meet it half way? I think not. The idea that anyone alive today owes an apology for something that occurred when none of us was alive is a product of a mentality that merely seeks to put it's foot in the door for a monetary claim, nothing more. It's racist, it's divisive, and it's cynical.

I'll save my compromising for something more worthy, thank you.

What you seem to be doing is denying peoples identity. It is why we have to use the term African American, even when most people believe its stupid to use a term that seperates a black person from other Americans by qualifying it with the word African. Yet here we are in 2005 using that term. Why, because that is the agreed upon identity. We all wanna roll our eyes when forced to use it but what are ya gonna do? Calling social demands idiocy might make ya feel better, but if it causes a polarization then perhaps you our prepaired for it to get worse. I say we pull our heads out of the sand and become proactive. Then change negative identity chosen by brute force. Social affirmation is not to be ignored.
Sean

 

[sgtmac_46]

What you seem to be doing is denying peoples identity. It is why we have to use the term African American, even when most people believe its stupid to use a term that seperates a black person from other Americans by qualifying it with the word African. Yet here we are in 2005 using that term. Why, because that is the agreed upon identity. We all wanna roll our eyes when forced to use it but what are ya gonna do? Calling social demands idiocy might make ya feel better, but if it causes a polarization then perhaps you our prepaired for it to get worse. I say we pull our heads out of the sand and become proactive. Then change negative identity chosen by brute force.
Sean

See, that's what I mean, when you say 'you seem to be denying people's identities', you assert that they are DEFINED by race. Yet, over and over again, modern science has shown that there is no such thing as biological race.

What causes polarization is this kind of passive-aggressive racism. We need to stop deciding that people are defined by racial differences, and judge every person on their individual merits. Merely changing the polarity of racism will never solve the problem.

This whole 'apology and reparations' movement is nothing but the racist mentality of a certain segment of society who, themselves, can't get past the color of people's skin. They've decided that race is the most important definition of who people are, and have locked in on that single point in order to divide people. They justify it by claiming victim and aggrieved status as their motive, not racism, though it's obvious by the fact that their claim is made purely along racial lines, that it is, indeed, racism.

Again, racism is not solved by MORE racism.

 

[Touch Of Death]

See, that's what I mean, when you say 'you seem to be denying people's identities', you assert that they are DEFINED by race. Yet, over and over again, modern science has shown that there is no such thing as biological race.

What causes polarization is this kind of passive-aggressive racism. We need to stop deciding that people are defined by racial differences, and judge every person on their individual merits. Merely changing the polarity of racism will never solve the problem.

This whole 'apology and reparations' movement is nothing but the racist mentality of a certain segment of society who, themselves, can't get past the color of people's skin. They've decided that race is the most important definition of who people are, and have locked in on that single point in order to divide people. They justify it by claiming victim and aggrieved status as their motive, not racism, though it's obvious by the fact that their claim is made purely along racial lines, that it is, indeed, racism.

Again, racism is not solved by MORE racism.

Its being ingrained into young childrens minds everyday. You can chose not to accept that these children are taught to define themselves by race, but they are. Your right though; this is a social problem and not scientific. I never claimed any different.
Sean

 

[sgtmac_46]

Its being ingrained into young childrens minds everyday. You can chose not to accept that these children are taught to define themselves by race, but they are. Your right though; this is a social problem and not scientific. I never claimed any different.
Sean

So your answer is to FURTHER ingrain the idea in to children's minds that they are solely defined by race, and should define their own personally worth and value purely based on their membership in a racial group?

 

[Touch Of Death]

So your answer is to FURTHER ingrain the idea in to children's minds that they are solely defined by race, and should define their own personally worth and value purely based on their membership in a racial group?

The devil is in the details, but we want the same thing. Again I suggest a purposefull compliance to overide the mentality with a stake in the community. Building more prisons seems garnish the most public support. Now that is a social ill.(soon to be our largest GNP but at least its fair[?])
Sean

 

[sgtmac_46]

The devil is in the details, but we want the same thing. Again I suggest a purposefull compliance to overide the mentality with a stake in the community. Building more prisons seems garnish the most public support. Now that is a social ill.(soon to be our largest GNP but at least its fair[?])
Sean

Prisons are our largest GNP? :rofl: Ok, it's at least apparent you have a sense of humor.

I've yet to hear how MORE racism is the answer.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Prisons are our largest GNP? :rofl: Ok, it's at least apparent you have a sense of humor.

I've yet to hear how MORE racism is the answer.

You think I'm kidding; thats cute. Perhaps you should take a criminal justice course. Then come laughing about it becoming our largest GNP.
Sean