Black Belts

[Ty K. Doe]

I'm posting this thread due to the number of comments I've seen posted about watered down martial arts. I've been curious about why people are noticing such a trend.

The other night, during class, I was helping a student who has a lower belt rank than myself. In some sort of a selfish way I found myself holding back on some minor tips and tricks. I realized that I was doing this and had to re-evaluate what I was showing this guy and why I was doing it. Basically I was holding out on this guy because I ultimately didn't want him getting better than me. I realized the error of my thinking and gave him the correct advice, but it got me to thinking. Has this been common with others? Do you find yourselves hiding techniques from others for your own benefit? I'm not sure there's anything necesarilly wrong with it, unless your an instructor and are getting paid to teach your technique to someone else.

Is it possible that we find so-called watered down martial arts from instructors because of the same thing I found myself doing? Or do we have people teaching that aren't really qualified to teach?

:asian:

 

[Danny]

I've never found myself doing that, before or after I started getting paid to teach. I think unqualified instructors are a far more common reason for "watered down" students.

 

[KoshoBob]

No, I have never held back on showing anything. However, there are some concepts that are taught in stages and you have to remember who your are showing it to so you don't go way over there head. New students are just trying to get down the basics without worrying about the subtleties.

 

[RCastillo]

I 've never held back showing anything, unless it's a hotdog that needs to be slowed down some.

In fact, I always try to do a better job than my teachers, if at all possible. If I don't, I failed, because I should be evolving myself.

I enjoy watching others as they progress, and marvel at their work. It makes me feel like I did my job.

 

[Bagatha]

Buddy no offense but thats crazy. It should make you feel good if your student surpasses you! They could not have done that without quality instruction, and while we all have different levels of physical ability, our potential is very rarley ever realized. So if they get better then your ego should grow because it means you are RIGHT, and you know what the hell your talking about. If they dont get better thats when YOU suck. A failure as a MA and as and instructor. JMHO

 

[Cthulhu]

I won't hold back info from a student I'm teaching or a fellow student I'm assisting. However, when showing stuff to non-martial artists, I will tend to hold stuff back. This isn't to keep 'an ace up my sleeve', but to try to keep them from doing something stupid in the future.

Cthulhu

 

[Ty K. Doe]

Quote by Bagatha

Buddy no offense but thats crazy. It should make you feel good if your student surpasses you!

First of all, I'm not an instructor. God forbid, non teachers or non black belts post on this board. I agree that if I were an instructor I would want ALL of my students to be the best that they can be. That obviously reflects on an instructors abillity and his schools reputation.

This is not something that I do all the time. I only entertained the idea to this one FELLOW STUDENT. And if you would have accurately read my post you would have seen where I wrote:

I realized the error of my thinking and gave him the correct advice,...

I also said...

.

I'm not sure there's anything necesarilly wrong with it, unless your an instructor and are getting paid to teach your technique to someone else.

Since I am fallible, just as everyone is fallible, I just wondered if people thought this was a possible cause of the McDojo trend, or that unqualified people were actually being qualified to teach martial arts.

So...Buddy, no offense but calm down.

 

[kickyou]

I can only speak for myself but I will feel a great sense of accomplishment when my students surpass me.No I will not hold anything back in my teaching I never have because when my students get better than myself then it will force me to try and make myself better so that I can stay one step ahead.It can only lead to good things for both.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

I agree. If at all I'm feeling selfish, its towards my students getting better than all the students around me. I want my students to be the best! Therefore, i think I may end up actullay doing the reverse of that a littl e bit. This is due to the reason that I may teacha student too much information for their rank... and sometimes overload them, just so they can do good. Because when they do good, then they also feel good. I dunno, its just my experience.:asian:

 

[Damian Mavis]

Sounds like you were feeling a little competetive towards the guy you were helping when you realised he had potential. What counts is you recognised what you were doing and corrected it.

As for me.... not to sound arrogant, but as long as I keep training I will always stay one step ahead of my students...of course, I'm still young (29) and things might change when I'm older. HOWEVER several of my senior students (all bigger than me) are a serious threat now when we fight. If I don't try my best they could seriously hurt me.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Chris from CT]

Originally posted by KoshoBob

No, I have never held back on showing anything. However, there are some concepts that are taught in stages and you have to remember who your are showing it to so you don't go way over there head. New students are just trying to get down the basics without worrying about the subtleties.

Bob makes a great point here. When first teaching someone you give them a little information and alow them to become proficient at it. Then over time, add a little more and refine what was already given. By giving too much information at one time (my old teacher used to call it the "dump truck theory") the student can get overwhelmed and think they can never accomplish the skill they are learning and then quit.

Martial arts are something you learn over a long period of time, gradually learning and refining. The approval to teach from their teacher is something more than a power trip. It's the point of; have they learned what is needed to teach others?

Here is where the watered down martial arts come into play... When people stop training and start teaching without putting in the years with a teacher and receiving permission, they miss many small but important parts of their style and techniques. The student thinks he knows it all and goes out teaching, but there are still lessons to learn. So the "new" teacher can never pass those things along to his/her new students. IMHO, that's why martial arts seem to get watered down.

"The more I know, the more I realize I don't."

Just my rambling thoughts.

Take care

 

[tigerstorm]

I agree with Chris,
It is not possible to teach a student everything in a technique, kata, or even punch/kick. If an Instructor says they dont hold anything back from a student than maybe that Instructor doesnt realize that he doesnt knwo it either. There is always a new idea or view of whats being done and if you want to teach all the possibilities of your first kata, I hope that you have a class that last about 3 non stop weeks because thats the only way your going to get them to know even half of it.
I dont mean to put anyone down, and I think I understand what your saying by not holding back, but the teaching of martial arts has to be done in stages. I have had a technique now for about 8 years, and two weeks ago learned that what i knew the technique as was not the intention of it, however the devastation in the technique was not taught to everyone upon learning it, and Im just starting to be tuaght some of the possiblilities that my Instructor had in mind.
Watering down of techinques though, Im sure we have all seen is from some teachers, simply not knowing what there teaching. They dont know werent taught. One very important thing to think about is was this person ever certified to teach, or given permission. Or did they go off on there own to make money and do something they think there good at.
Tigerstorm

 

[Stickboxer]

Ty, let me save you from the criticisms by admitting that I, too, have long struggled with the terrible desire to hold back information, especially just to keep an edge...

I will defend myself by saying that this attitude was born out of numerous different reasons:

One, yes, I'm selfish, and while I'm confident in myself, and while I believe the student should eventually outperform the teacher... I still want to be better than those around me. Not just better than myself; we all know that's what we should strive for, not to compete against others. But who doesn't want to be the best?

Two, self-discovery is important. Students must learn for themselves many of the little things you aren't sharing. You may give a general explanation about a technique, but its through trial and error, among other methods of exploration, that the student must determine the details.

Three, my own teachers--and it seemed everyone around me, from training partners to even those I considered friends--were overly critical jerks who said I'd never amount to anything. I separated my associates into different groups and trained in just certain areas with each. With my first teacher Adam, we concentrated on kicks, and I never let us delve into hand techniques. Meanwhile, I'd also train with Joey, but we'd do only boxing. Once a week I also met and grappled with another friend. I then had experience in areas they did not.

Four, KoshoBob was correct in stating that quite often, lessons can and often should be taught in stages. Besides, you don't want to flood students with too much information all at once. Likewise, you also have to keep in mind information imparted in a class is usually given to the masses, and it has to be more broad and general.

Five, its often just a matter of opinion. Telling a student certain little tricks and details may lock them into doing it that way when, quite frankly, there may be a better way of doing it, at least for that student. The teacher can be wrong.

Six, there's too much to think about if you say too much. Getting a student to perform a kick could be the start; later on, you can adjust the little things; later still, once the student is comfortable performing the technique, he or she can begin using that technique in conjunction with sparring strategies.

I had more but I'm getting tired and I forgot them.

 

[Stickboxer]

Someone talked about "the beginner's mind" on another thread, and mentioned that he wants his students to be inquisitive, asking questions all the time, etc. I like to see that, too. I wonder if not giving students all information possible when they ask helps trigger the learner's curiousity.

I have several methods for doing just that, but in case anyone has more, please share!

My favorite method is to ask questions of the students, to really get them thinking. For example, I'll show a disarm where I press against my opponent's weapon with my palm, then I'll demo it using my forearm, then my bicep, then my shoulder, then my leg... I'll show most of the variations possible, but after I seem to exhaust the possibilities, I'll then ask the students to come up with different ways. They have to become very creative, using everything from their hip to their neck. It gets them to see beyond the ordinary and embrace the universal concepts.

At each testing, my students don't perform pre-arranged self-defense techniques, but rather have to come up with different responses to attacks. They don't get that kind of ability by parroting what I've shown or told them, but by finding their own way and forging their own path.

Well that sounds stupid, but hey, it works.

 

[Stickboxer]

Thought a little bit more. I'll shut up soon.

I'm writing a sort of manual, not really for publication, just something for my children... maybe I'll let my students see it, but it'll take at least another 15-20 years to finish it. Seriously.

The manual is huge, in volumes, actually. It began as a collection of notes, but its become a textbook. One thing I'm trying to do with it is show that different viewpoints exist. For example, some people say to punch with the fist vertically, some horizontally, some to twist just so much as you punch, some say to twist much more, some styles don't punch at all. I then try to list the pros and cons of each, pointing out where I'm biased so the reader knows where to take my opinion with a grain of salt.

The reason I bring this up is because in this book, I go on for many pages on "basic" stuff like stance. Hell, there's 20 pages on the simple boxing jab. Everything that can possibly be said about the straight jab, I try to bring it up, so when a student eventually reads the thing, he or she will have every detail about jabs available right there.

My point is, I wouldn't want to waste valuable class time expounding at length about the many tips, tricks, and other particulars that could come up in class. My students must study their art outside class and in ways other than practicing techniques.

 

[Ty K. Doe]

By Stickboxer
Ty, let me save you from the criticisms by admitting that I, too, have long struggled with the terrible desire to hold back information, especially just to keep an edge...

Thank you for your honest opinion. I believe it is human nature to want to keep that competative edge. Anyone who has been in any kind of sport knows this. I also believe that if more people would be honest they've done it too, to an extent.

I find it fascinating that you have taken the initiative to take all that you have learned and know and put it into a book. It sounds interesting. So are you ever going to publish it so the rest of us could read it?

 

[WaterCircleHarmony]

I was also guilty as charged of the holding back thing. It stems from a selfishness to fuel the ego. The ego has no place in the martial arts at all. I'm not currently an instructor and i think it develops with time and level of maturity too.

I have since corrected and am more in tune with FELLOWSHIP, yeah i still do it from time to time unwittingly though. Obviously if the guy's a cocky one then i may not reveal the whole truth for fear that his ego may cause him to do something stupid.

 

[WaterCircleHarmony]

surely admitting it is the first step to correcting the problem.