black belts

[oftheherd1]

As has been said, it is entirely dependent upon the art and school.
The thing that most people that don't practice a martial art fail to understand, is that a "black belt" only means something within the organization that granted said rank. A black belt in a Wado ryu karate organization means absolutely nothing in BJJ or kendo or Taekwondo. It only means something within the Wado ryu organization that granted the belt. Heck it doesn't even mean anything to a different Wado ryu organization, unless they've got a reciprocal agreement in place saying that they'll recognize the other organization's ranks. (Just using Wado ryu as an example. I don't even know if there is more than one Wado ryu organization. )

I hold various dan ranks in three different sword arts and four organizations. One had a very detailed progression where you were required to know and perform certain kata and techniques to progress through the ranks. Another had only six kata for rank testing. The same six kata were performed for a panel consisting of the head of the school and the main instructors from Japan and U.S. for every rank test. Your demeanor and performance determined whether they thought you were ready for the next rank.

So, to get a definitive answer to your question it would need to be much more detailed as to which art and organization, since different schools and organizations have different ideals and different methodologies for attaining those ideals.

Bolded and underlined: I think you mean it a different way, but since 1st dan black belt meant a great sense of accomplishment to me, and I knew what I had put in to it, I respect the ranks of other organizations. It a practitioner in another system has a higher dan than me, I pay that person respects. I would have to be very sure a system was totally bogus not to show that respect. Even so, I probably still would, simply to show lower students what I thought was proper protocol.

I realize this had been asked in a Karate forum, but others in different arts have commented. So, in the Hapkido I studied,

1st dan was defense against many kinds of grabs (using strikes, breaks[grapples and throws], pressure points, punches, kicks, knives, and a taste of offense just before the black belt test.

2nd degree was a lot of the same, but using different techniques and pressure points, also sword use and defense. Also throw defense and ground defense techniques.

3rd degree was counters to white belt techniques, and a lot of short stick defenses and offense.

4th degree - I don't know as I didn't train that far. I was told that it was mostly healing techniques, but I don't know.

And so of course I don't know what was above. In his book, Kimm showed a lot more techniques being taught at higher levels.

 

[Buka]

I'm not sure what a black belt means. You would think I'd know after all this time, but I really don't. Seems to me that the martial arts community in general doesn't really know what a black belt means, either, but that's just my opinion.

Ah, the mysteries of life. Good thing we've got lots of teachers to explain these things to us.

 

[pgsmith]

Ah, the mysteries of life. Good thing we've got lots of teachers to explain these things to us.

I liked that phrase so much that I felt it needed repeating! It is a true statement (in my opinion) for life in general. Our lives are filled with teachers (many of whom don't even know that's what they're doing!) that can explain a great deal if we make the effort to recognize what they're teaching us.

 

[Jenna]

I liked that phrase so much that I felt it needed repeating! It is a true statement (in my opinion) for life in general. Our lives are filled with teachers (many of whom don't even know that's what they're doing!) that can explain a great deal if we make the effort to recognize what they're teaching us.

Agree.. and I would go even further and suggest we have the grace to have lessons put their selves slap bang in front of our paths as though to impede them almost all of the time yet we do not apprehend these as lessons or teachings at all x

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In BJJ, black belt is that last rank which is officially based on proof of technical prowess. After that the degrees are typically* based on continued time in grade training. It's not automatic - you still have to be promoted by a higher ranked instructor based on his/her perception that you are still training/teaching/contributing to the art in a manner befitting a BJJ black belt. If you aren't actively training or aren't associated with a higher ranked instructor, then you probably won't get promoted further.

*(There are no universal rules in BJJ, so I'm sure there are instructors out there who do technical testing for the higher degrees of black belt, but they would be the exceptions.)

Most arts that use the belt ranking system consider a newly promoted black belt to be a "1st dan" or "1st degree black belt". In BJJ, "degrees" refers to the stripes on the belt, so a newly promoted black belt would be a "zero degree" BB. (That term isn't used, but "1st degree" doesn't apply until he/she gets the next promotion.)

The typical time in grade expectations for BB degrees are as follows:

• 3 years for degrees 1, 2 and 3

• 5 years for degrees 4, 5 and 6

• 7 years for degree 7 (black and red)

• 7 years for degree 8 (white and red)

• 10 years for degree 9 (red)

That makes the cumulative years for promotion 3,6,9,14,19,24,31,38,48. Based on that I should be receiving my 9th degree black belt in BJJ at some point after my 98th birthday. I plan on making it a big celebration. You're all invited.

 

[Buka]

That makes the cumulative years for promotion 3,6,9,14,19,24,31,38,48. Based on that I should be receiving my 9th degree black belt in BJJ at some point after my 98th birthday. I plan on making it a big celebration. You're all invited.

I'll be there, bro. With bells on.

 

[JR 137]

In BJJ, black belt is that last rank which is officially based on proof of technical prowess. After that the degrees are typically* based on continued time in grade training. It's not automatic - you still have to be promoted by a higher ranked instructor based on his/her perception that you are still training/teaching/contributing to the art in a manner befitting a BJJ black belt. If you aren't actively training or aren't associated with a higher ranked instructor, then you probably won't get promoted further.

*(There are no universal rules in BJJ, so I'm sure there are instructors out there who do technical testing for the higher degrees of black belt, but they would be the exceptions.)

Most arts that use the belt ranking system consider a newly promoted black belt to be a "1st dan" or "1st degree black belt". In BJJ, "degrees" refers to the stripes on the belt, so a newly promoted black belt would be a "zero degree" BB. (That term isn't used, but "1st degree" doesn't apply until he/she gets the next promotion.)

The typical time in grade expectations for BB degrees are as follows:

• 3 years for degrees 1, 2 and 3

• 5 years for degrees 4, 5 and 6

• 7 years for degree 7 (black and red)

• 7 years for degree 8 (white and red)

• 10 years for degree 9 (red)

That makes the cumulative years for promotion 3,6,9,14,19,24,31,38,48. Based on that I should be receiving my 9th degree black belt in BJJ at some point after my 98th birthday. I plan on making it a big celebration. You're all invited.

Just bought my plane ticket. Can you recommend any good hotels, or can I just crash on your couch?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just bought my plane ticket. Can you recommend any good hotels, or can I just crash on your couch?

Why the plane ticket? If we all take our time, everyone can respectively walk, swim, and meander there and make it in time. If anyone needs me, I'll be strolling along I-40. If I cover a few dozen miles a year, I'll make it, Tony.

 

[oftheherd1]

I wouldn't want to miss it for the world.

I have arranged for my casket to be shipped there for the event, and back.

I no longer drink, but that isn't a problem, just pour some appropriate libation over the casket.

 

[pgsmith]

Just bought my plane ticket. Can you recommend any good hotels, or can I just crash on your couch?

I don't think Tony's picture makes him look quite that old, but I've been wrong before.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't think Tony's picture makes him look quite that old, but I've been wrong before.

That picture is probably over 10 years old by now. I really should take a new one.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'm not sure what a black belt means.

That depends. It depends on where you get a black belt and the standards that the instructor you get it under has. That's why I consider where and how you got the belt to be just as important, if not more important, than the belt itself.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So pgsmith and JR 137 considering your posts you both seem to regard the first degree black belt as just the beginning into the world of martial arts. Lots of dojos and lots of martial artists would agree with you. JR 137 you said yourself that a black belt is by no means considered an expert, at least not in your dojo, and pgsmith you said that a first degree black belt is simply seen as a "real" student, somebody who understands the basics. Another words, a serious beginner. As I said such a view of the black belt is not uncommon in the world of martial arts and it is for that reason why I don't see the point of making the black belt test proportionally much harder than the brown belt test. Naturally it should be harder since the black belt is a more advanced belt but for it to be proportionally that much harder and for it to take proportionally much longer to go from brown to black than to go up any of the earlier belts seems a bit unbalanced to me. A big jump would be going from white directly to black and its for that reason why you don't go from white directly to black you go through all the colored belts. From what I know in the old days the only belts they had were white and black, that was when they first started to use belts as a ranking system and at the time they didn't come up with the rainbow of all the different colored belts in between. If going from brown to black is such a big jump than it stands to reason that perhaps there should be belts in between brown and black.

From what I know about BJJ it typically takes 2 years to get from brown to black, that is the average. As it is though it also typically takes 2 years to get from purple to brown, 2 years to get from blue to purple, and 2 years to get from white to blue. It doesn't take one year to get from purple to brown and then 5 years to get from brown to black so I see the BJJ system as being more balanced.

 

[Zephyor]

is the 6th dan the max you can attain?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That depends. It depends on where you get a black belt and the standards that the instructor you get it under has. That's why I consider where and how you got the belt to be just as important, if not more important, than the belt itself.

I think this is the overriding response. If I know your school's policies and practices, then your black belt tells me something. If I don't, then it might as well be chartreuse for all it tells me.

(I'm going to introduce a chartreuse belt, and put heavy requirements on getting the next one. The hideous color should motivate students to work hard to get out of it. Maybe I'll charge a testing fee for the next belt up.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

is the 6th dan the max you can attain?

Who was this addressed to?

 

[JR 137]

I think this is the overriding response. If I know your school's policies and practices, then your black belt tells me something. If I don't, then it might as well be chartreuse for all it tells me.

(I'm going to introduce a chartreuse belt, and put heavy requirements on getting the next one. The hideous color should motivate students to work hard to get out of it. Maybe I'll charge a testing fee for the next belt up.)

Be careful. My almost 6 year old daughter is a blue belt. Blue's her favorite color. And the belt matches the kanji on the gi. She doesn't want the next belt (yellow), or the one after that (green) or anything else. Not even black. She said the only other color she wants is red. Our Kaicho is the only one in the organization who wears a solid red belt.

I guess she'll have to wait about 60 years or so for that one. I can't imagine what her blue belt will look like after 60 years of consistent training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Be careful. My almost 6 year old daughter is a blue belt. Blue's her favorite color. And the belt matches the kanji on the gi. She doesn't want the next belt (yellow), or the one after that (green) or anything else. Not even black. She said the only other color she wants is red. Our Kaicho is the only one in the organization who wears a solid red belt.

I guess she'll have to wait about 60 years or so for that one. I can't imagine what her blue belt will look like after 60 years of consistent training.

You know, I could see that. I really liked my blue belt (one of my favorite colors, too). It was much nicer than the green and purple (next two colors), and brown is just drab (after purple). I'd have been happy to go from blue to black.

 

[Buka]

I think this is the overriding response. If I know your school's policies and practices, then your black belt tells me something. If I don't, then it might as well be chartreuse for all it tells me.

(I'm going to introduce a chartreuse belt, and put heavy requirements on getting the next one. The hideous color should motivate students to work hard to get out of it. Maybe I'll charge a testing fee for the next belt up.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When I get around to creating my own system and promoting myself to Supreme Grandmaster, I'm going to commission myself a custom made Technicolor Dream Belt. It will have all the colors of the rainbow and it will glow in the dark.