black belts

[Gerry Seymour]

Or, as in my case, they enjoy a system with rank, but don't really worry about progressing through the ranks. I'm told to promote, so I do. Otherwise, I just do my thing.

There are those. I mostly moved up in student ranks because that was the only way to get to the next part of the curriculum. After that, I progressed to black because that was the path to get certified as an instructor.

 

[JR 137]

The OP mentioned Kyokushin in another thread.

Kyokushin dan ranks mean learning different kata, techniques/strategies, perhaps different weapons (depending on the IKO and/or instructor).

Kyokushin in most countries has competition requirements to advance. They're not based on the outcome, but if you competed. Depending on the rank, you need to have competed locally, nationally, and internationally. There are exceptions for age, disability, affordability, and number of competitions available. There aren't very many Kyokushin/knockdown tournaments in the US, but Europe, Japan and Asia are different. This is allegedly more for quality control than for competition sake; in bigger competitions, you face more opponents from various areas, so it's to make you get out of your comfort zone and apply what you've learned against unknown and fully resisting opponents.

Competition isn't really going to get you to advance in rank. There's been many lower dan ranks who've won the All-Japan and World Open tournaments. By lower dan, I mean 3rd, give or take 1.

But with most promotions in dan rank, you learn a bit more, but it's mainly improving yourself and your art. The highest dan ranks are typically awarded for advancing the art; teaching for a long time, promoting many people, your students going on to be what you were, etc.

Every school has different requirements, therefore there's no good answer to "what does a higher dan ranking mean?"

 

[PhotonGuy]

As has been said, it is entirely dependent upon the art and school.
The thing that most people that don't practice a martial art fail to understand, is that a "black belt" only means something within the organization that granted said rank. A black belt in a Wado ryu karate organization means absolutely nothing in BJJ or kendo or Taekwondo. It only means something within the Wado ryu organization that granted the belt. Heck it doesn't even mean anything to a different Wado ryu organization, unless they've got a reciprocal agreement in place saying that they'll recognize the other organization's ranks. (Just using Wado ryu as an example. I don't even know if there is more than one Wado ryu organization. )

True enough. But I do think that most people know that even those that don't train in the martial arts. Most people with experience in martial arts and I suppose even lots of people who don't have experience with martial arts know that BJJ, Kendo, and Taekwondo are radically different but for people who do train in martial arts most of them know that even among similar styles or the same style taught by different organizations that any belts you earn apply to only the school or organization where you earned it.

However, knowing that you've earned a belt at a good reputable school where you have to work hard to get it, that is what I call an accomplishment and I believe it is something to strive for and something to feel good about if you do it, but that's just me.

And of course no matter what belt you get or what level you reach there is always more to learn, always ways to improve. The learning never stops.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

True enough. But I do think that most people know that even those that don't train in the martial arts. Most people with experience in martial arts and I suppose even lots of people who don't have experience with martial arts know that BJJ, Kendo, and Taekwondo are radically different but for people who do train in martial arts most of them know that even among similar styles or the same style taught by different organizations that any belts you earn apply to only the school or organization where you earned it.

However, knowing that you've earned a belt at a good reputable school where you have to work hard to get it, that is what I call an accomplishment and I believe it is something to strive for and something to feel good about if you do it, but that's just me.

And of course no matter what belt you get or what level you reach there is always more to learn, always ways to improve. The learning never stops.

I don't think most people outside MA understand this, at all. To them, for the most part, BB represents some near-mystical level of mastery. For those of us who have some significant amount of training (I don't know what that means - definitely more than a year for most folks), it eventually becomes clear that BB is often a watershed rank, but is nothing magical. We don't become invincible, etc.

There are systems where BB is fairly easy to reach. I used to have an issue with that on principle, but I've come to accept that it's just a difference in how they use rank. I'm not talking about the schools that give away black belts without delivering effective training, I'm just talking about those who use that rank as a starting point for students to advance from after they have some basic competency. As long as there is rigor in the training long-term, I don't really care if they give the BB as the first belt to hold the dogi closed. It won't mean the same thing mine does, and that's okay.

I'm rambling a bit...no coffee yet.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't think most people outside MA understand this, at all. To them, for the most part, BB represents some near-mystical level of mastery. For those of us who have some significant amount of training (I don't know what that means - definitely more than a year for most folks), it eventually becomes clear that BB is often a watershed rank, but is nothing magical. We don't become invincible, etc.

There are systems where BB is fairly easy to reach. I used to have an issue with that on principle, but I've come to accept that it's just a difference in how they use rank. I'm not talking about the schools that give away black belts without delivering effective training, I'm just talking about those who use that rank as a starting point for students to advance from after they have some basic competency. As long as there is rigor in the training long-term, I don't really care if they give the BB as the first belt to hold the dogi closed. It won't mean the same thing mine does, and that's okay.

I'm rambling a bit...no coffee yet.

I do agree that there is nothing magical about the black belt, it is just one belt after brown or whatever system your dojo uses. Yes there are some dojos where BB is quite easy to reach and as such I've come to the conclusion a long time ago that its not just the belt that matters but also where and how you got it. As you pointed out, there is nothing mystical or magical about the black belt and it doesn't make you a grand master or anything. As such, what I don't get is why lots of dojos make a big deal about promoting a student from brown to black (assuming that they're training in a system where black is right after brown.) As I said its just one belt up so I don't see the point in making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other earlier belts. JR137 I believe mentioned something about his dojo being a bit like that and it would be interesting to read what he has to say about it if he responds to this thread. He has made some good contributions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do agree that there is nothing magical about the black belt, it is just one belt after brown or whatever system your dojo uses. Yes there are some dojos where BB is quite easy to reach and as such I've come to the conclusion a long time ago that its not just the belt that matters but also where and how you got it. As you pointed out, there is nothing mystical or magical about the black belt and it doesn't make you a grand master or anything. As such, what I don't get is why lots of dojos make a big deal about promoting a student from brown to black (assuming that they're training in a system where black is right after brown.) As I said its just one belt up so I don't see the point in making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other earlier belts. JR137 I believe mentioned something about his dojo being a bit like that and it would be interesting to read what he has to say about it if he responds to this thread. He has made some good contributions.

In many styles (including the mainline of NGA, and to a lesser extent in Shojin-ryu), there is a purposeful difference between brown and black. We consciously draw a line and say "On one side of this line, you may be an average student. On the other side, you must excel." In the mainline of NGA, shodan (first degree black) promotion includes instructor certification (training at brown includes a minimum of a year of student teaching), so there are very strict requirements to get that rank. It is, in my opinion, the hardest rank to get. For those who pursue it, nidan is actually often easier because of all the work they had to do (and all they had to learn) to reach shodan.

I've maintained most of that in Shojin-ryu, except for the instructor certification. BB is still damnably hard to get to, but should take a bit less time, since student teaching comes after reaching shodan (making that optional, allowing for those who don't wish to teach), and nidan is the instructor rank.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In many styles (including the mainline of NGA, and to a lesser extent in Shojin-ryu), there is a purposeful difference between brown and black. We consciously draw a line and say "On one side of this line, you may be an average student. On the other side, you must excel." In the mainline of NGA, shodan (first degree black) promotion includes instructor certification (training at brown includes a minimum of a year of student teaching), so there are very strict requirements to get that rank. It is, in my opinion, the hardest rank to get. For those who pursue it, nidan is actually often easier because of all the work they had to do (and all they had to learn) to reach shodan.

I've maintained most of that in Shojin-ryu, except for the instructor certification. BB is still damnably hard to get to, but should take a bit less time, since student teaching comes after reaching shodan (making that optional, allowing for those who don't wish to teach), and nidan is the instructor rank.

I see. So are your instructors from the USA?

 

[JR 137]

As such, what I don't get is why lots of dojos make a big deal about promoting a student from brown to black (assuming that they're training in a system where black is right after brown.) As I said its just one belt up so I don't see the point in making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other earlier belts. JR137 I believe mentioned something about his dojo being a bit like that and it would be interesting to read what he has to say about it if he responds to this thread. He has made some good contributions.

Not quoted, yet I agree with it - there's nothing magical nor mystical about a black belt.

My former school and current school do make black belt tests much harder than the rest. That's all I know, and I like that approach.

Yes, black is literally the next color after brown (or whatever color a particular system uses; I think most TKD schools use red), but there's a big difference between what's expected from a black belt and a colored belt student. Not in a bad way, but colored belts tend to be promoted when they're good enough (relatively speaking). Black belts are held to a much higher standard in this regard. People routinely fail black belt tests. A classmate I'm close to promoted to 1st dan about 6 months ago. Out of approximately 30 candidates from various dojos, I think 22 were promoted. They weren't called out publicly, but after each night, there were less people the next session. They were taken aside at the end of the session and told behind closed doors they needed more time before they tested again. My CI has never had anyone fail a black belt test in his 30+ years teaching. Keep in mind it's the head of the organization doing the testing, not him. He's there to assist his teacher and support his students.

Black belts are expected to be leaders or role models. They set the tone in class, and they're expected to help people below them. They're supposed to have a quiet dignity about them, and not a "look at me" mentality. While they're not experts, they are a lot closer to it than the beginners are; they should be able to easily explain and/or demonstrate stuff to people below them. Not in a running a class sense, but in a helping students out sense and being someone lower ranks can look at if they're stuck during class.

Failing a colored belt test is quite rare, failing a black belt test happens more than often enough to say it happens. But just like testing for a colored belt, black belt candidates are invited to test when their CI feels they're ready and not when the student feels they're ready (although a student can respectfully decline taking the test).

I know, 1st dan is just one step up from brown belt, but it's a big step. It's hard to put into words, but if you were a student at our dojo, you'd understand. It's a cultural thing I guess. Not that what we do is inherently better not worse than what anyone else does (so long as they're not just handed out to anyone who's paid).

A black belt is someone the lower ranks are supposed to look up to. Not from a guru standpoint, but from a knowledge and technique standpoint. You've got to prove you're worthy. Some believe in a demanding physical test, others believe that the test is every minute you're on the floor. Both are correct, and even in dojos with rigorous black belt tests, you still have to earn the invitation to test. I prefer the hard test personally, but again, it's all I know.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see. So are your instructors from the USA?

NGA, so far as we know, only exists in the USA. The original dojo in Chitose (Hokkaido prefecture) closed sometime in the 1970's, I think.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I learned something new tonight.

 

[PhotonGuy]

NGA, so far as we know, only exists in the USA. The original dojo in Chitose (Hokkaido prefecture) closed sometime in the 1970's, I think.

If the NGA only exists in the USA it still could've been founded and run by people from the orient. Are your instructors originally from the orient or are they born in the USA?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the NGA only exists in the USA it still could've been founded and run by people from the orient. Are your instructors originally from the orient or are they born in the USA?

It was founded in Japan (as I said, in Hokkaido prefecture). Richard Bowe studied under Morita Shodo when he was stationed in Japan, and brought the art to the US in 1962 (I'm pulling that year from my memory, so I might be off a bit) when Morita died. The dojo in Chitose was taken over by Nara Tominosuke (Morita's step-son), who became the head of the art. Some years later, Nara stopped teaching publicly (he apparently continued teaching some private lessons) and closed the dojo. Upon Nara's death, as far as we know, there were no instructors teaching NGA in Japan (nor anywhere else, except the US). NGA exists today solely because of Richard Bowe's efforts here in the US.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So gpseymour and JR 137 thank you for your responses. You both said some really meaningful stuff. Anyway I would first like to point some stuff out. Most of this should be obvious but I just want to clarify it for good measure. First of all in terms of belts and the order they go in every school has its own system. Ranking systems with colored belts vary from dojo to dojo and brown might not necessarily be the belt right before black. JR 137 as you said there are some TKD schools where red is right before black. Well for sake of discussion in my example Im using a system where brown is right before black because its a common system in lots of dojos. Also, in some systems with the belts in between white and black there might be multiple levels per belt, for instance, a system might have multiple levels of brown belt. Again for sake of discussion and for sake of simplicity in my example there is only one level of brown belt. So with my example you reach brown and then right after that would be black.

So anyway, what you both said about it being a huge step from brown to black, from what I know that is very much an American thing. In Japan supposedly black belt is simply the belt after brown and they don't make such a big deal of promoting a student from brown to black like they do in the USA. Naturally of course the black belt test is going to be harder than any of the tests for the previous belts simply because its a more advanced belt but as far as it being proportionally harder not so much. In Japan it will not take proportionally much longer or be proportionally much harder to promote from brown to black than it will be to promote up to any of the previous belts. JR 137 I believe you said in another thread that you have a background as a school teacher. That can work well in this discussion and make for some good analogies. Lets say a high school or college student is taking a bunch of history classes, the first year or semester they take History I, than after that they take History II then History III and finally History IV. Now, History IV is not necessarily any harder than History III, II, or I its simply sequential. From what I know the belt system in Japan including the black belt is more like that.

Now, also, from what I know about the belt system in Japan, when it starts to get really hard is after you make black belt and you want to advance up the various black belt degrees. Getting from 1st degree to 2nd degree is going to be really hard and getting from 2nd degree to 3rd degree is going to be harder still and so forth. That does make sense. As it is, I can tell you from my own experience that after you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. For one thing they expect more out of you but also you expect more out of yourself.

In the USA though supposedly its much easier, after you make black belt, to be promoted up the various degrees than it is in Japan.

So that is what I know about how things differ in the two cultures in regards to getting promoted to black belt and getting promoted beyond that if you pursue the higher degrees. So what is your take on the two systems?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Usually the number of white stripes on your belt.

 

[JR 137]

@PhotonGuy

In my post, I was using brown as referring to brown as the last belt before black.

As far as things being different here vs Japan, my Kaicho was born and raised in Japan. Tadashi Nakamura was sent to the US by Mas Oyama to spread Kyokushin. He left Kyokushin in 1976 and formed Seido Juku (the system I'm in). My teacher has been his student since before he left Kyokushin and tested for 1st (and possibly 2nd) dan under him during the Kyokushin days. He claims the black belt tests were just as difficult back then as they are now. A bit different in what they did, but there was still a big difference in the difficulty between brown and 1st dan.

My former organization's founder was also Nakamura's student before he left and started his own organization.

I don't know about the rest of Japan, but Nakamura wasn't doing anything differently in this regard than what he was doing as the head instructor in Kyokushin's honbu in Tokyo. Maybe it's more a Kyokushin thing than a rest of Japan thing? Shigeru Oyama (no relation to Mas Oyama) also allegedly kept this practice when he left Kyokushin and started Oyama karate. Nakamura and Shigeru Oyama occasionally tested each other's students for black belt after both had left Kyokushin. My instructor nor any of his students didn't test under Shigeru Oyama, but several of his classmates did; he also assisted tests when Shigeru Oyama's students were tested.

Not sure how the rest of Japan views the jump between brown and black belt (assuming brown is the last colored belt), but these guys came to the US as high ranking black belts from Japan. Both were the top instructors in Kyokushin's honbu before being sent here by Mas Oyama.

 

[pgsmith]

In my post, I was using brown as referring to brown as the last belt before black.

As far as things being different here vs Japan, my Kaicho was born and raised in Japan. Tadashi Nakamura was sent to the US by Mas Oyama to spread Kyokushin. He left Kyokushin in 1976 and formed Seido Juku (the system I'm in). My teacher has been his student since before he left Kyokushin and tested for 1st (and possibly 2nd) dan under him during the Kyokushin days. He claims the black belt tests were just as difficult back then as they are now. A bit different in what they did, but there was still a big difference in the difficulty between brown and 1st dan.

Here is the Japanese perspective as seen through my eyes and the Japanese arts that I've practiced. Shodan (1st black) and above are referred to as yudansha, which literally means those who have a dan rank. Colored belts (in some arts they have kyu ranks rather than colored belt ranks) are referred to as mudansha, which literally means those who have no dan rank. A dan ranking means that a person has understood the very basics, and can now begin actually practicing the art. In Japan, you are literally not a real student until you have achieved a dan ranking. This is why a black belt test is considerably more difficult than a colored belt test in any art that I am familiar with. Shodan is the first "real" ranking. The colored belts (or kyu grades) are there just to let a person know how they are progressing, and for ease in competitions for sport arts.

 

[JR 137]

Here is the Japanese perspective as seen through my eyes and the Japanese arts that I've practiced. Shodan (1st black) and above are referred to as yudansha, which literally means those who have a dan rank. Colored belts (in some arts they have kyu ranks rather than colored belt ranks) are referred to as mudansha, which literally means those who have no dan rank. A dan ranking means that a person has understood the very basics, and can now begin actually practicing the art. In Japan, you are literally not a real student until you have achieved a dan ranking. This is why a black belt test is considerably more difficult than a colored belt test in any art that I am familiar with. Shodan is the first "real" ranking. The colored belts (or kyu grades) are there just to let a person know how they are progressing, and for ease in competitions for sport arts.

Excellent post. I'd rate it agree, like, informative, etc., but I can only choose one. Although students here in the US are usually seen as "real students," they're certainly not taken as seriously as yudansha (for the most part). There's a lot more turnover in kyu ranks than in yudansha, and kyu ranks generally haven't proven that they're going to stick around for a long time. My former Sensei said he personally knew a few high ranking Japanese instructors who really only considered sandans and above serious students.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So gpseymour and JR 137 thank you for your responses. You both said some really meaningful stuff. Anyway I would first like to point some stuff out. Most of this should be obvious but I just want to clarify it for good measure. First of all in terms of belts and the order they go in every school has its own system. Ranking systems with colored belts vary from dojo to dojo and brown might not necessarily be the belt right before black. JR 137 as you said there are some TKD schools where red is right before black. Well for sake of discussion in my example Im using a system where brown is right before black because its a common system in lots of dojos. Also, in some systems with the belts in between white and black there might be multiple levels per belt, for instance, a system might have multiple levels of brown belt. Again for sake of discussion and for sake of simplicity in my example there is only one level of brown belt. So with my example you reach brown and then right after that would be black.

So anyway, what you both said about it being a huge step from brown to black, from what I know that is very much an American thing. In Japan supposedly black belt is simply the belt after brown and they don't make such a big deal of promoting a student from brown to black like they do in the USA. Naturally of course the black belt test is going to be harder than any of the tests for the previous belts simply because its a more advanced belt but as far as it being proportionally harder not so much. In Japan it will not take proportionally much longer or be proportionally much harder to promote from brown to black than it will be to promote up to any of the previous belts. JR 137 I believe you said in another thread that you have a background as a school teacher. That can work well in this discussion and make for some good analogies. Lets say a high school or college student is taking a bunch of history classes, the first year or semester they take History I, than after that they take History II then History III and finally History IV. Now, History IV is not necessarily any harder than History III, II, or I its simply sequential. From what I know the belt system in Japan including the black belt is more like that.

Now, also, from what I know about the belt system in Japan, when it starts to get really hard is after you make black belt and you want to advance up the various black belt degrees. Getting from 1st degree to 2nd degree is going to be really hard and getting from 2nd degree to 3rd degree is going to be harder still and so forth. That does make sense. As it is, I can tell you from my own experience that after you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. For one thing they expect more out of you but also you expect more out of yourself.

In the USA though supposedly its much easier, after you make black belt, to be promoted up the various degrees than it is in Japan.

So that is what I know about how things differ in the two cultures in regards to getting promoted to black belt and getting promoted beyond that if you pursue the higher degrees. So what is your take on the two systems?

I think a lot of this goes back to differing definition of rank cut-offs. From what you're saying (and from what I've heard from others), it sounds like many Japanese schools treat black belt rank the way NGA treats brown, or maybe even purple (just before brown) in the mainline of NGA. For us, brown is normally the first belt with a significantly harder test - maybe twice as hard as previous tests. Black bumps that up another notch, being at least 50% tougher than brown, plus adding instructor training to achieve it. It takes a bare minimum of 1 year to go from brown to black in mainline - much longer than the minimum time at any previous rank - because of the instructor certification requirement. I think, for mainline, the instructor certification is the reason for the higher level of emphasis on black. If we re-colored the belts (making mainline's brown into black), you'd get something pretty much as you describe for the Japanese schools.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Colored belts (in some arts they have kyu ranks rather than colored belt ranks) are referred to as mudansha, which literally means those who have no dan rank.

That's interesting. In NGA, we use both colored belts and kyu ranks (white = rokkukyu in mainline, yonkyu in Shojin-ryu). It never occurred to me that the kyu ranks were used elsewhere like dan ranks, not needing different colored belts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is the Japanese perspective as seen through my eyes and the Japanese arts that I've practiced. Shodan (1st black) and above are referred to as yudansha, which literally means those who have a dan rank. Colored belts (in some arts they have kyu ranks rather than colored belt ranks) are referred to as mudansha, which literally means those who have no dan rank. A dan ranking means that a person has understood the very basics, and can now begin actually practicing the art. In Japan, you are literally not a real student until you have achieved a dan ranking. This is why a black belt test is considerably more difficult than a colored belt test in any art that I am familiar with. Shodan is the first "real" ranking. The colored belts (or kyu grades) are there just to let a person know how they are progressing, and for ease in competitions for sport arts.

Hmm, in mainline NGA, they say almost that exact thing when promoting someone to purple belt (nikkyu). A student is considered a serious student of NGA at that point, and has enough knowledge to actually start to get good. At purple belt, they also get the last 10 techniques in the core curriculum.