Begging Hands

[MisterMike]

Mr. Robertson/Clyde,

I beleive I was quoting Hrrikane on the solar plexus targets. Please read the entire thread. I'll try to make my references more pointed next time.

My Kenpo lineage goes back to Mr. Planas, and we were taught the 32 system. 32 techniques each for Orange, Purple, Blue and Green. Then the Orange 32 was taught again with the Original extensions. Again, there were 32. This, along with the Forms 1-6 (7 and 8 were not part of the original system) completes the system as I learned it.

I've trained for 10 years. Still a Sping chicken I hope, and still learning.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MisterMike
My Kenpo lineage goes back to Mr. Planas, and we were taught the 32 system. 32 techniques each for Orange, Purple, Blue and Green. Then the Orange 32 was taught again with the Original extensions. Again, there were 32. This, along with the Forms 1-6 (7 and 8 were not part of the original system) completes the system as I learned it.

I've trained for 10 years. Still a Sping chicken I hope, and still learning.

Well, you really didn't answer the questions so I'll pose them again. Who is your instructor? In addition, how far removed from Mr. Planas are you in your lineage? What makes you think the extensions are not something Mr. Parker didn't put in the system? I also did the 32 version with Larry, and was then taught the extensions of the 24 thru green, and it's emphasized in Book 5 of Infinite Insights as a requirement for those belt levels. I just kinda figured that was what Mr. Parker approved as the curriculum before his untimely demise, but I could be wrong. You also have to remember I'm getting the information from someone with almost 25 years of daily contact with Mr. Parker.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

Mike:

Yep, you're right about the solar plexus. I guess I got confused because of the claim that a) the heel-palms had no figure-eights, and b) they thrust "down," on the opponent.

Thanks.

 

[MisterMike]

Well, you really didn't answer the questions so I'll pose them again. Who is your instructor? In addition, how far removed from Mr. Planas are you in your lineage? What makes you think the extensions are not something Mr. Parker didn't put in the system? I also did the 32 version with Larry, and was then taught the extensions of the 24 thru green, and it's emphasized in Book 5 of Infinite Insights as a requirement for those belt levels. I just kinda figured that was what Mr. Parker approved as the curriculum before his untimely demise, but I could be wrong. You also have to remember I'm getting the information from someone with almost 25 years of daily contact with Mr. Parker.

It could have been written in book 5 and that's all great, but my last school was very conservative and worked with the system before it had a lot of outside influence (around the time of book 5).

I'd tell you my full lineage but I don't see the need to get into a pissing match over who has the better teacher. Let's just leave it at "we're learning different systems". I've noticed a lot of arrogance on the boards coming from the Tatum students, and it's not what I'm here for. We can still discuss the motion, even if it is different. My comment about double heel-palms not fitting in the solar plexus was accurate, doesn't matter if the move was in your system or mine.

You may do Delayed Sword for a Left hair grab for all I know, but if we're going to have a technical discussion on Kenpo motion, then we have to leave out the Politics.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MisterMike
It could have been written in book 5 and that's all great, but my last school was very conservative and worked with the system before it had a lot of outside influence (around the time of book 5).

I'd tell you my full lineage but I don't see the need to get into a pissing match over who has the better teacher. Let's just leave it at "we're learning different systems". I've noticed a lot of arrogance on the boards coming from the Tatum students, and it's not what I'm here for. We can still discuss the motion, even if it is different. My comment about double heel-palms not fitting in the solar plexus was accurate, doesn't matter if the move was in your system or mine.

You may do Delayed Sword for a Left hair grab for all I know, but if we're going to have a technical discussion on Kenpo motion, then we have to leave out the Politics.

You have to remember that I'm in the heart of Kenpoland, with access to alot of the Senior BB's around at that time, and was training in the West LA studio with Mr. Parker when you were merely thinking of doing Kenpo in High School, so I'm speaking from a much more informed position. It may come off as arroagance but it's actually knowledge. The reason I bring up your lineage and how far removed you are is usally indicative of the cloning effect. The more you copy the copy, the more degenerative it becomes, so in effect, we may very well be doing different systems. If you choose not to listen to what we have to say, there is an ignore function to blot us out, that's always an option. I never brought Kenpolitics into the conversation BTW, I thought we were discussing Begging Hands, and I think the topic is worthwhile discussing.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[MisterMike]

OK, enough said. Maybe we'll cross paths sometime. I'm a fairly nice guy to talk to and work out with. In fact, the thing that I like best about myself is my modesty. :lol:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Welllp, thank goodness you're above the politics, Mike.

I'm sorry if I offended. But I was simply trying to tell you, politiely, that I got the material from someone who probably had about as good a pipeline as there is. I probably should've figured out something better.

While I agree that there are several ways to see questions and issues, well, at some point the debate does have to stop. Everything ain't equally good--the very claim that kenpo makes to being a science (now there's an arguable one) relies on the idea that, in the end, there is such a thing as the right way and the wrong way, the good concept and the poor one.

I don't want by any means to get into the fantasy that I'm perfect. But I will note that there's an interesting point the critic Stanley Fish makes on the "Chronicle of Higher Education," website--college students should be told to leave their opinions at home.

Do they have the right to an opinion? Absolutely. But it's quite possible to confuse the right to believe, and think, and argue and talk and write and teach in a democratic society, with the notion that all ideas and views are equally good.

 

[MisterMike]

Robert,

I agree. We can't have it ALL ways, just to make people feel good. So long as we still realize that there will always be different ways. I think your posts are done respectfully, as well as others I've corresponded with on here. Arrogant was probably not the best choice of terms, so as for you and Clyde, I hope no offense was taken.

Well, since we've strayed far enough from Begging Hands I'll just have to catch you guys on another posting - unless it turns back ;-)

 

[Michael Billings]

... the groin and hits the pubic bone or a leg, forcing the opponent back, do we:

1. Graft into another technique as indicated.
2. Run screaming into the night.
3. Utilize the chicken kick as a gauging kick and cover distance with it instead of an in-place option.
4. Call someone and complain that "that is not the way Mr. Parker showed me."

(sorry, thoughts of the 100 Kenpo Black Belts changing a light bulb floated in there - one to change the lightbulb, and 99 to say .... (you got it) "THAT'S NOT THE WAY MR. PARKER TAUGHT ME") TA-DAAA, and now the sound of one hand clapping ....." * "

(See I do have a sense of humor, it is just very bizzare.)
-MB

 

[rmcrobertson]

Personally, I plan to burst into tears. Then, quote Marx.

However, there are rights and wrongs in technique. For example, shoving down on the body with the heel palms is MOST LIKELY wrong because, a) it's awkward, b) you might force them to head-butt you, c) if they did go down ( unlikely) their feet might very well come up, and you be discomfited; d) this wouldn't jibe with the extension at all..

 

[FiveSwords]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
(sorry, thoughts of the 100 Kenpo Black Belts changing a light bulb floated in there - one to change the lightbulb, and 99 to say .... (you got it) "THAT'S NOT THE WAY MR. PARKER TAUGHT ME")

:rofl:

Good stuff. And so very true.

Anyway, I guess what to do would depend on the situation. If you felt very threatened by this person grabbing your wrists, I would say keep pounding on him. Otherwise, I think a kick to the groin would sufficiently deter him from trying to grab your wrists again, so you should exit stage right.

 

[dcence]

You have to remember that I'm in the heart of Kenpoland, with access to alot of the Senior BB's around at that time, and was training in the West LA studio with Mr. Parker when you were merely thinking of doing Kenpo in High School, so I'm speaking from a much more informed position. It may come off as arroagance but it's actually knowledge. The reason I bring up your lineage and how far removed you are is usally indicative of the cloning effect. The more you copy the copy, the more degenerative it becomes, so in effect, we may very well be doing different systems.

Wow! Tell me you didn't say that. This reeks of that same old tired arrogance and elitism that Mr. Parker used to complain about when he was alive -- that some of his SoCal people think they know it all when they really didn't have a clue. Give me (and every other Kenpoist who doesn't live in SoCal) a break. Since when does your place of residence and pedigree give you a monopoly on the golden truth? Is a Catholic any better because he and his ancestors are from Rome? Well -- the Pope is from Poland.

Everything ain't equally good--the very claim that kenpo makes to being a science (now there's an arguable one) relies on the idea that, in the end, there is such a thing as the right way and the wrong way, the good concept and the poor one.

I agree that many alternatives people come up with violate principles, but you (Robert) and Clyde take it to the other extreme of there is one right way, and that is your way, and as soon as someone puts up another alternative, out comes the broken record of "well my instructor is so-and-so, I live in Kenpoland, etc., so my opinion carries more weight." (See above.)

If there is a right way or a wrong way, which one is the right way? The way it was done in the early eighties when your instructor and Mr. Parker split? Or the version that was around when Mr. Parker died? They are different, you know. (See your conversation about Kicking Set). The extensions changed in that time, too. How some of the base techniques were executed changed. So which is the true gospel? If there is a right and a wrong and there can be only be one -- which is it? Early eighties or 1990?

However, there are rights and wrongs in technique. For example, shoving down on the body with the heel palms is MOST LIKELY wrong because, a) it's awkward, b) you might force them to head-butt you, c) if they did go down ( unlikely) their feet might very well come up, and you be discomfited; d) this wouldn't jibe with the extension at all..

Well, since this is the technical forum, lets talk about Begging Hands. I actually saw Mr. Parker do the palm heels exactly as you are saying is MOST LIKELY wrong. This was just a couple of years before he passed. He actually slammed right down on the chest, torquing outward, not up under the ribs like you feel is so important, and how it is written. He said (paraphrasing), "I like to do it this way to crack the sternum and split the chest in two." Is this the way it is written? No. But do this and that precious little extension becomes unnecessary.

d) this wouldn't jibe with the extension at all.

I can't believe I am actually hearing this. Are you trying to justify a version of the base technique with the extension? That cart is way in front of the horse. Well, guess what -- if you ever even get to an extension there is something seriously wrong with your Kenpo.

I just have to laugh when people place such importance on the extensions. And, yes, I learned the 24 technique per belt system and the extensions. Got tested by Mr. Parker himself up through 2nd black, and he never asked once to see an extension. He wanted us to hit the base and then formulate based on what was there at the time. It soon became apparent to me that all of this endless memorization of patterns was for people who couldn't/wouldn't think for themselves, but who wanted to feel like they were learning something new. Do extensions have good ideas? Yes. But by then you should have the master keys and more than anything, they hide, by their sheer volume, what is really important.

Mr. Parker used to say that if he really didn't want to teach some one, he would dump on them more than they could handle. It seems to me there is a lot of that going on with the memorization of countless, endless pattern sequences and extensions and never learning what is really important. Anyone who thinks that Kenpo is about memorizing countless, endless pattern sequences exactly as written completely missed the boat and is sitting on the pier with their bags packed full of extensions.

All I ask is that you ACTUALLY listen and consider someone else's opinion. Treat others as peers, even if they are a 5th generation white belt living in Timbuktu, not subordinates. Who knows, you might actually learn something.

Derek

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
Wow! Tell me you didn't say that. This reeks of that same old tired arrogance and elitism that Mr. Parker used to complain about when he was alive -- that some of his SoCal people think they know it all when they really didn't have a clue. Give me (and every other Kenpoist who doesn't live in SoCal) a break. Since when does your place of residence and pedigree give you a monopoly on the golden truth? Is a Catholic any better because he and his ancestors are from Rome? Well -- the Pope is from Poland.



I agree that many alternatives people come up with violate principles, but you (Robert) and Clyde take it to the other extreme of there is one right way, and that is your way, and as soon as someone puts up another alternative, out comes the broken record of "well my instructor is so-and-so, I live in Kenpoland, etc., so my opinion carries more weight." (See above.)

If there is a right way or a wrong way, which one is the right way? The way it was done in the early eighties when your instructor and Mr. Parker split? Or the version that was around when Mr. Parker died? They are different, you know. (See your conversation about Kicking Set). The extensions changed in that time, too. How some of the base techniques were executed changed. So which is the true gospel? If there is a right and a wrong and there can be only be one -- which is it? Early eighties or 1990?



Well, since this is the technical forum, lets talk about Begging Hands. I actually saw Mr. Parker do the palm heels exactly as you are saying is MOST LIKELY wrong. This was just a couple of years before he passed. He actually slammed right down on the chest, torquing outward, not up under the ribs like you feel is so important, and how it is written. He said (paraphrasing), "I like to do it this way to crack the sternum and split the chest in two." Is this the way it is written? No. But do this and that precious little extension becomes unnecessary.



I can't believe I am actually hearing this. Are you trying to justify a version of the base technique with the extension? That cart is way in front of the horse. Well, guess what -- if you ever even get to an extension there is something seriously wrong with your Kenpo.

I just have to laugh when people place such importance on the extensions. And, yes, I learned the 24 technique per belt system and the extensions. Got tested by Mr. Parker himself up through 2nd black, and he never asked once to see an extension. He wanted us to hit the base and then formulate based on what was there at the time. It soon became apparent to me that all of this endless memorization of patterns was for people who couldn't/wouldn't think for themselves, but who wanted to feel like they were learning something new. Do extensions have good ideas? Yes. But by then you should have the master keys and more than anything, they hide, by their sheer volume, what is really important.

Mr. Parker used to say that if he really didn't want to teach some one, he would dump on them more than they could handle. It seems to me there is a lot of that going on with the memorization of countless, endless pattern sequences and extensions and never learning what is really important. Anyone who thinks that Kenpo is about memorizing countless, endless pattern sequences exactly as written completely missed the boat and is sitting on the pier with their bags packed full of extensions.

All I ask is that you ACTUALLY listen and consider someone else's opinion. Treat others as peers, even if they are a 5th generation white belt living in Timbuktu, not subordinates. Who knows, you might actually learn something.

Derek

OK

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...Derek--that "torquing outward," you mention--it's part of the extension to the technique, perhaps applied to a different target.

I can't answer for Clyde. But my argument is not that there is only one right way, but that there are in point of fact wrong ways. See E.D. Hirsch, and the concept of, "horizons," in meaning.

I'd also note that it's interesting how these accusations about papistry come up every time some of us say...uh...no, I don't think so, and start providing reasons why. In fact--and apologies in advance if this makes things worse--I find it weird that the accusations often seem to replace explanations. Look baack through at the number of times posts remark, "well, that'd take too long to explain," or offer some platitude about "creativity," and "not getting frozen with one thing," or "tailoring," rather than simply explaining why things work.

In fact--and I gotta tell you that I SOMETIMES see this as the real difference--I get the impression that SOMETIMES folks are simply repeating things and cannot for the life of them say why.

One personal note--does it really make sense to claim that Clyde and I are too slavishly attached to our instructor (Larry Tatum--don't blame him for our horseassery), then insist that, "Got tested by Mr. Parker himself up through 2nd black, and he never asked once to see an extension. He wanted us to hit the base and then formulate based on what was there at the time. It soon became apparent to me that all of this endless memorization of patterns was for people who couldn't/wouldn't think for themselves, but who wanted to feel like they were learning something new. Do extensions have good ideas? Yes. But by then you should have the master keys and more than anything, they hide, by their sheer volume, what is really important. ..Mr. Parker used to say that if he really didn't want to teach some one, he would dump on them more than they could handle?"

I'll agree if sometimes I'm obnoxious, if you'll agree that some folks jump the gun into personal attacks because they can't answer questions about what they're doing and resent those who can, at least, try.

 

[pete]

Circling Wagons!

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Personally, I plan to burst into tears. Then, quote Marx.

However, there are rights and wrongs in technique. For example, shoving down on the body with the heel palms is MOST LIKELY wrong because, a) it's awkward, b) you might force them to head-butt you, c) if they did go down ( unlikely) their feet might very well come up, and you be discomfited; d) this wouldn't jibe with the extension at all..

"MOST LIKELY wrong" is what I'm finding doesn't "jibe".

a)Heel-palms can work on a downward angle, and are through-out the System (Grip of Death - contains a heel-palm that strikes diagonally down to force them onto their back).

b)Striking someone with a long-range hand weapon isn't going to bring them in close enough to head butt you.(99% of the time IMHO)

c)Getting kicked by a flailing leg when you are directing your force downward is pretty slim, again IMHO. If I were pushing them back or up, then I'd be concerned.

d)The extension, well I think dcence pretty much cover the cart-and-horse theory.

I suppose I should clarify the ideal situation in Begging Hands after the kick to the face, and that is the person is going to be leaning back a bit, giving you the angle of incidence you need to drive them downward. (Remember Encounter with Danger?)

 

[dcence]

Uh...Derek--that "torquing outward," you mention--it's part of the extension to the technique, perhaps applied to a different target.

Uh.... well... ummm....Robert, are we still talking about extensions? Geez. Parker didn't even get to the extension. Don't say this is the extension to preserve your version of the base. Just listen to an alternative, and say, 'hmmmm" and think about it for a second before explaining it away. This is exactly what I am talking about.

I can't answer for Clyde. But my argument is not that there is only one right way, but that there are in point of fact wrong ways.

I agree 100%. There are wrong ways, and so you agree there are multiple right ways. Great. You and Clyde came down on MisterMike as though he was wrong. The problem in this instance is you were calling MisterMike wrong when I think Mr. Parker could be in his corner as much as yours. Not that I think Mr. Parker didn't make mistakes.

I'd also note that it's interesting how these accusations about papistry come up every time some of us say...uh...no, I don't think so, and start providing reasons why.

The problem here is.... uh..... well.... your 'reasons why" amounted to "it is written that way" and "it won't work for the extension." Clyde's was "You don't live in Kenpoland." Neither is much of a reason for anything.

One personal note--does it really make sense to claim that Clyde and I are too slavishly attached to our instructor (Larry Tatum--don't blame him for our horseassery), then insist that, "Got tested by Mr. Parker himself up through 2nd black, and he never asked once to see an extension.

Don't worry -- I don't associate Tatum's personality with you or Clyde. He is his own person as we all are. Tatum is a great martial artist in his own right. I am not so insecure to not recognize his ability, knowledge and experience. You are fortunate to have such a good instructor. My comment about the pre-/post-split Kenpo was to make the point that there is no one way. Not that the early 80's version is inferior at all to the 1990 version. But anyone who tries to draw the line between right and wrong better be sure on which side of their own line they will end up.

I am not beyond horseassery myself. I don't really get your point of the rest of your quote. I wasn't bringing up the tests with Parker to say that my opinion is worth more than yours (lot's of people tested with Parker) -- just that in my personal experience the extensions never had any real importance placed on them even in those tests. You know me well enough to know I certainly have my own difference of opinion with some of Parker's material and approach. Heck, I don't prefer the way Parker did Begging Hands that one time over the way it is written. So I am not beholden to either. Truth be told, I do it different from both. (If two kicks are done right, the guy isn't going to be anywhere near to do double hand strikes. If he is, I better work those kicks. Two hand strikes are okay, but I prefer hitting with one palm heel personally.)

I'll agree if sometimes I'm obnoxious, if you'll agree that some folks jump the gun into personal attacks because they can't answer questions about what they're doing and resent those who can, at least, try.

ANYTIME there is a personal attack it is jumping the gun. The only personal attack I saw was when MisterMike was told he didn't know what he was talking about because he wasn't from So. Cal. and his instructor may not be a 1st generation Parker BB. I agree that people jump into personal attacks, especially about instructor lineage, when they can't explain why they do what they do. As you know I will give you the reasons I like/dislike or believe/disbelieve something whether you ask or not.

Again, listen sometimes, disagree too, but treat the guy at the other end like his opinion is entitled to as much weight as yours, even if you don't think it is. Actually, debate with you and Clyde are enjoyable to me when we are actually talking the why's and wherefore's. And you demonstrate some good knowledge when it isn't obfuscated with condescension.

Personally, I plan to burst into tears. Then, quote Marx.

I knew you were a leftist commie. LOL

Derek

 

[rmcrobertson]

OK, now we're talkin'. But the condescenscion is your--let's just say, "trip," not mine. I understand that others will prob'ly agree with you, projecting their worries onto my screen...all's I can do is tell you, it's not true. And personally, I try to avoid such accusations and just deal with the discussion.

Two other points. The extension matters, precisely because it teaches that "downward" and "outward," heel-palm motion that's being ballyhooed as creative.

And as for downward heel palms used as long-range weapons, I'm afraid that I'm just not getting it. How well can you possibly push down with your arms extended? And if you do this, what exactly prevents their heels from flying up--not that they must, but that they might? Look at Crushing Hammer, which mos' def' has got a downward heel-palm as they start to go over--the extension precisely takes advantage of thee way their feet fly up, or the way they attempt to get their feet up...

In the base tech--if we're going to talk about bases--the second kick ideally snaps the head back, "teeing up" the diaphragms and tensioning the lower chest, which is why the heel palms go there. The "ripping and clawing," stuff appears as the hands slide up from these strikes and the extension begins with what looks disturbingly like that gawdawful scene from, "A Man Called Horse..." That's why the distinction in the heel palms is important.

I think this stuff is there precisely to teach distinctions.

 

[Michael Billings]

Your discussion can be of benefit without the attempts to cut the other guy's line short.

The technique can be done effectively either way. I happen to do it the way Mr. Tatum teaches, as they are always rocked back from the 2nd kick, and I use an upward arcing motion (there, now another method of execution) to heel palm the floating ribs, in the feverant hope I can actually pierce an organ with the strike. I am shooting for the lower part of the lungs or a major artery near the heart with the rib, it does not even have to break since it is embedded in muscle, but in all liklihood would break. And that is just for grabbing my wrists and not letting go when I asked politely.

Let's start another thread on Crushing Hammer, as I do it a little different from you Robert. It is more of the torquing heel palm, but to the left floating rib, since the elbow stretched them back. Ya wanna start another thread? I love the extension on this, especially the takedown, I have seen a similar one in Silat.

-MB

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sure, Michael, but I see that I didn't explain that heel palm that well--because in your explanation, it looks like exactly the same thing.