Begging Hands

[Hrrikane]

Last night at one of our group classes we got into a discussion on when one should clear the hands while performing Begging Hands. When do you clear the hands after the first kick to the groin or do you clear them at the same time you strike with the second kick to the solo plexus? Also, what are your reasons for clearing the hands at that particular time in the technique?

 

[rmcrobertson]

As you step back with the "first," move, which gives the technique its name.

Don't clear them too far...but one reason to whip your hands over and (diagonally, to be sure) down is to check the attacker's height...

 

[dcence]

For once I kind of agree with Robert. LOL

But for me, the timing might be a little different. First move is to step back and roll the hands over, but don't jerk yet. This checks and cancels momentarily. Second move is to kick and jerk the hand with opposing forces. That is where I count on clearing the hands. The idea is to do all of this seamlessly stepping back, moving through a transitional cat stance into the kick. So to me it is one move, but when you learn it, it is multiple steps.

 

[Michael Billings]

That is how I do it also. I have to teach it sequentially, but in execution it flows together.

I saw Howard Silva do it once without the release at all, just the downward sort of pull, then the release came with the two upward heel palms. The kicks were awefully quick, low then to face and the thrusting heel palms worked against the weak part of the grip.

I prefer the way you and Robert are doing it personally and that is what I teach generally.

-MB

 

[MisterMike]

When do you clear the hands after the first kick to the groin or do you clear them at the same time you strike with the second kick to the solo plexus?

What do you mean by clearing the hands? If you kick the opponent in the groin, they 'should' let go (and hold something else). Then when you kick to the face, their hands are presumably going there next. At this point when I run it, my hands are still chambered to go right into the 2 torquing heel-palm strikes.

I may have mis-interpreted 'clear' in your post. I was thinking you were doing some clearing motion with your hands(rather than using the kick). Did you mean to 'clear(release) the grip' or clear their hands out of the way for the heal-palms?

When I break the grip, I pull my hands back (but not diag. downward) so that they are in position to deliver 2 torquing heel-palm strikes downward onto the opponent's upper body.

Regards,

 

[rmcrobertson]

Um...look for the figure-eights as the hands come back...round off the corners, rather than yanking in and thrusting back...

 

[MisterMike]

Ah, yes, Ive found those. But they are in Circling Fans et. al.

The reason they are not in Begging Hands is to show Torquing Heel Palms, which are linear.

But I'll certainly explore your technique as well, thank you!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...I don't think so. If you look at Begging Hands, the hands indeed do follow figure-eight patterns...in keeping with the general kenpo "rounding off corners," principle. In a way, there are no straight lines in kenpo...any more than there are circles that aren't flattened, ellipses...

And those strikes to the torso don't exactly take a straight line to the body, either...one possibility is that they are lifting heel-palms striking up under the diaphragms...

Thanks.

 

[MisterMike]

The two torquing heel-palms are to drive the opponent down onto his back. To do this, they would have to strike diagonally down, and therefor must be chambered higher than the targets.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it

 

[Hrrikane]

Let me clarify what I mean by clearing. The clearing motion is when one chambers both of their hands after the grip is broken. This is to setup the double palm heel strike to the solar plexus.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MisterMike
The two torquing heel-palms are to drive the opponent down onto his back. To do this, they would have to strike diagonally down, and therefor must be chambered higher than the targets.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it

Have you done the extension to this technique? It would be pretty difficult to pull off if your attacker went to the ground.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Hrrikane]

From what I have seen of the extension your opponent doesn't have much time to fall to the ground.

 

[rmcrobertson]

The strikes, "don," with the heel palms don't go to the solar plexus. They go beneath the ribs...and as for needing to chamber and strike down, you may be overlooking the way that the second kick snaps the head back (well, if everything's perfect, which it won't be) to "present," their lower rib-cage...you strike "down," on it only because the angle of the body's been changed.

Then there's the issue of where their legs go while you're pushing down on their torso...

 

[MisterMike]

I don't think you'll be able to fit double hell-palm strike to the solar plexus, unless you're fighting Goliath.

As for an extension, it wouldn't be one of the original 32, so it wouldn't have come from Mr. Parker in my book. You can add all the what-if's you want though.

 

[FiveSwords]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Have you done the extension to this technique? It would be pretty difficult to pull off if your attacker went to the ground.

Not saying that is the correct way to do the technique, but it seems that most of the extensions would be hard to do if the colored-belt part was done correctly.
I believe extensions are only really necessary if you don't hit him with everything you've got or the attacker is one tough mofo.

As far as Begging Hands, we do thrusting heel-palms/claws that grab the pec muscle, rotate and tear outwards.

What are your thoughts?

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

What "tearing outwards?" The movement is inward with a heel palm while having Contact Maintainance with the other.

Here is what I have for the Extension in it's latest version circa 1990.

1. Begging Hands (Front- Two-Hand Grab to Wrists)
1. An opponent at 12:00 directly grabs your wrists with both hands; their left hand to your right wrist, right hand to your left wrist.
2. Step back with your left foot to 6:00 into a right neutral bow facing 12:00 as you circle your hands from the inside out (up, over, and on top) of your opponent's wrists, simulating the begging hands.
3. Immediately slide your right foot back into a transitional right cat stance. Execute a right front kick to your opponent's groin.
4. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12:00. Execute a left front kick to your opponent's chin or chest. Note: This should bring your opponent's body up.
5. Land in a left neutral bow facing 12:00 as you utilize back-up mass and execute twin torquing heel palm strikes under your opponent's ribcage.
6. Step your right foot to 10:30 into a right neutral bow; your right knee steps through your opponent's right knee as you simultaneously have both of your hands grab your opponent's flesh (on the chest) and squeeze.
7. Step your left foot to 1:30 into a left rear crossover while maintaining the grab. Step your right foot out to 1:30 to buckle out your opponent's left leg. Simultaneous with the buckle, execute a right inward heel palm strike to your opponent's face. (Your left is maintaining the grab.)
8. Step with your right foot to 7:30 into a right front crossover sweep to your opponent's right foot. Simultaneous with the sweep, execute a left inward heel palm strike to your opponent's face while your right hand checks your opponent's right shoulder.
9. Pivot counterclockwise and execute a left rear kick to any opening.
10. Land in a left front crossover and cross out to 4:30.

If you have another version, you might want to share, so we are all on the same page.

Thanks,
-Michael

 

[FiveSwords]

5. Land in a left neutral bow facing 12:00 as you utilize back-up mass and execute twin torquing heel palm strikes under your opponent's ribcage.

Right. This is how we do it, but after the strikes land, we grab the pec, rotate inward and tear outward, then come back in more underneath the armpit for the extension.

I don't know where this came from, but this is what my instructor taught me and he trained with Mr. Planas for several years, so I would have figured Huk would have scolded him if it was too far off.

 

[Michael Billings]

This material came in the very late 80's. Huk was already doing his own thing and living in New Orleons at the time. No big thing, I am sure it is a variation that works, whether yours or mine. Once I make contact, I "stick" and usually do not let go until disengaging.

-MB

<<Edited 5:12>> Changed '90's to '80's. Whoops, -MB

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I don't think you'll be able to fit double hell-palm strike to the solar plexus, unless you're fighting Goliath.

As for an extension, it wouldn't be one of the original 32, so it wouldn't have come from Mr. Parker in my book. You can add all the what-if's you want though.

Exactly how long have you been doing Kenpo and who is your instructor, and how did you could you come to the conclusion that the extension is not what Mr. Parker did or didn't do? I've heard some pretty crazy things in my time but that's certainly a first.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...first off, I wrote--twice--that the "double torquing heel-palms," do NOT, repeat NOT repeat NOT go to the solar plexus, but to--precisely as Mr. Billings wrote--to beneath the ribcage, both sides.

Second, the extensions are real, and again my understanding--and my school's manual--gives Mr. Billings' version.

Third--"what if's?" Well sure. If everything goes right, I avoid the fight in the first place and no formal tech is necessary at all. If everything goes right, you step back and no block is necessary...etc. etc...but if everything doesn't go right, ya needs some place to go.

As for the assertion that Mr. Parker didn't approve the endings--if memory serves, they're in his original manuals. And if that don't float your boat...well, I've mostly got them from Larry Tatum, so I don't know what to tell you...