Bad "Martial Arts"

[Black Bear]

Mmm, secret sauce. I wish I brough some to work. I wish I were eating it right NOW.

I think I'm going to keep a flask of Professor Phardtpounder's in the fridge here from now on.

 

[markulous]

It's nice that some people agree with me. Like I stated before it seems that there are still alot of good martial artists around.

For some of the other people though your comparing martial arts as if it's some kind of franchise! I.e. Burger, McDonalds, Jorges Secret Sauce, etc...Martial Arts is, well an art. Not something that has a drive through or is sold on the corner at a 7-11. It seems half of the people I talk to are just too prideful or have extreme cases of paranoia about their art. And I will be as respectful as I can but I'm sorry it just really pisses me off sometimes.

PS: I shouldn't have labeled the thread bad MARTIAL ARTS. I should have labeled it bad instructors. And I probably shouldn't have called them idiots but like I said it just really pisses me off. For those 2 things I apologise. :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by markulous
For some of the other people though your comparing martial arts as if it's some kind of franchise! I.e. Burger, McDonalds, Jorges Secret Sauce, etc...Martial Arts is, well an art. Not something that has a drive through or is sold on the corner at a 7-11. It seems half of the people I talk to are just too prideful or have extreme cases of paranoia about their art. And I will be as respectful as I can but I'm sorry it just really pisses me off sometimes.

No one is refering to MA as a franchise, but when owning your own school and that is how you pay the rent and eat, it becomes a business....like it or not. Those who own their own full time school have to address issues of business in their school. To turn down students is stupid, so to do something that makes students not sign up with you is equally stupid. I agree with the let the person watch, we do that, as I said, but I do not in any way think that if you don't let people watch you are less legitamate. Your speaking of pride and yet your not allowing for much margin of error in your own statements. No one is being paranoid about thier art, but there are those who will watch how you teach and copy it for their own advancement. What makes someone pay you for MA instead of the guy down the street? Those things do have to be looked at.
You will understand if you ever own your own business. Its simply something that has to be addressed or you will not be succsseful in business.

7sm

 

[Sapper6]

Originally posted by markulous
It's nice that some people agree with me. Like I stated before it seems that there are still alot of good martial artists around.

For some of the other people though your comparing martial arts as if it's some kind of franchise! I.e. Burger, McDonalds, Jorges Secret Sauce, etc...Martial Arts is, well an art. Not something that has a drive through or is sold on the corner at a 7-11. It seems half of the people I talk to are just too prideful or have extreme cases of paranoia about their art. And I will be as respectful as I can but I'm sorry it just really pisses me off sometimes.

PS: I shouldn't have labeled the thread bad MARTIAL ARTS. I should have labeled it bad instructors. And I probably shouldn't have called them idiots but like I said it just really pisses me off. For those 2 things I apologise. :asian:

Selling Martial arts is a business, just like the businesses you just mentioned...and yes, some are parnoid of sharing their art to others, for what ever reason...of course, your natural reaction is to be upset with the practice of others, but try not to let it ruin your day...

by reading your signature at the bottom of your post, i take it your a Bruce Lee fan...try reading "Zen in the Martial Arts" by Joe Hyams (SP)...the book is not really that long, and was written with the help of Mr. Lee. its got great insight to different scenarios including the one you are in right now...

Your Friend in Zen,

Sapper6

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by markulous
It's nice that some people agree with me. Like I stated before it seems that there are still alot of good martial artists around.

For some of the other people though your comparing martial arts as if it's some kind of franchise! I.e. Burger, McDonalds, Jorges Secret Sauce, etc...Martial Arts is, well an art. Not something that has a drive through or is sold on the corner at a 7-11. It seems half of the people I talk to are just too prideful or have extreme cases of paranoia about their art. And I will be as respectful as I can but I'm sorry it just really pisses me off sometimes.

PS: I shouldn't have labeled the thread bad MARTIAL ARTS. I should have labeled it bad instructors. And I probably shouldn't have called them idiots but like I said it just really pisses me off. For those 2 things I apologise. :asian:

Sounds like your in for a whole lifetime of being pissed off. Enjoy:asian:
Sean

 

[markulous]

No one is refering to MA as a franchise, but when owning your own school and that is how you pay the rent and eat, it becomes a business....like it or not. Those who own their own full time school have to address issues of business in their school. To turn down students is stupid, so to do something that makes students not sign up with you is equally stupid. I agree with the let the person watch, we do that, as I said, but I do not in any way think that if you don't let people watch you are less legitamate. Your speaking of pride and yet your not allowing for much margin of error in your own statements. No one is being paranoid about thier art, but there are those who will watch how you teach and copy it for their own advancement. What makes someone pay you for MA instead of the guy down the street? Those things do have to be looked at.
You will understand if you ever own your own business. Its simply something that has to be addressed or you will not be succsseful in business.

7sm

Again it's one class. There is no way I could copy and make money off of one 30 minute class. And honestly if he hadn't of had such a conceited attitude I might not have taken offense at all. It was the vibe that I got from the guy as well. And if I had a martial arts school my main focus would not be money. Maybe I wouldn't be that wealthy but the few people around me that I was teaching would make me a very rich man.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Again it's one class. There is no way I could copy and make money off of one 30 minute class. And honestly if he hadn't of had such a conceited attitude I might not have taken offense at all. It was the vibe that I got from the guy as well. And if I had a martial arts school my main focus would not be money. Maybe I wouldn't be that wealthy but the few people around me that I was teaching would make me a very rich man.

I beleive That "you" could not copy the lesson plan from 30 minute class; however, there are those that can. They want to know how much you charge, see how unruly students are handled, time how long you spend on warm ups, length of time spent on particular subjects, and then they get to learn a bit of your style. Let me ask you this... How many classes would "you" allow a martial artist, from the school down the street, to watch? Would it be OK if he brought a note pad and ask you questions, about what he didn't understand, after class? Are you the least bit worried that they may attack some poor whitebelt, or perhaps follow some pretty girl home?
Sean

 

[Bod]

There is no way I would turn up at another dojo with my teacher wearing a club T-shirt, let alone another kwoon (unless there was a friendly relationship already). It screams CHALLENGE!

Also, many trad CMA sifus believe it their duty to pass down their art as one whole, and don't want it mangled (as they see it) by the progressive crowd. That's how they feel.

At Judo we will have just about anyone on, or to watch, and if they are experienced in another wrestling style, we are only too pleased to work out with them, especially the higher grades.

And now for an anecdote:

My old sifu (Southern 5 animals) had a Wing Chun sifu friend round the gym one day, and they were chatting about this and that. After a while he said, 'OK I'm busy, you can go now' and sent him away. I said, 'Why is that, are you trying to protect the schools secrets?'.

He said 'Don't be stupid, there is nothing he doesn't know already, he is just interested at watching the ladies!'

 

[markulous]

I beleive That "you" could not copy the lesson plan from 30 minute class

And just what do you mean by that? Are you trying to imply something?

; however, there are those that can. They want to know how much you charge, see how unruly students are handled, time how long you spend on warm ups, length of time spent on particular subjects, and then they get to learn a bit of your style. Let me ask you this... How many classes would "you" allow a martial artist, from the school down the street, to watch? Would it be OK if he brought a note pad and ask you questions, about what he didn't understand, after class? Are you the least bit worried that they may attack some poor whitebelt, or perhaps follow some pretty girl home?
Sean

So basically what you are saying is to refuse everyone at the door because they may use it to attack other people? I don't agree with that at all. In fact if we let him in he is going to be less likely to do that. We aren't going to teach someone how to snap someones neck and how to kill someone with a credit card. We would go through our routine training drills and have that accompanied by some philosophy.

 

[Touch Of Death]

And just what do you mean by that? Are you trying to imply something?



So basically what you are saying is to refuse everyone at the door because they may use it to attack other people?...

That was just my snotty way of saying I believe that you believe. We don't refuse anyone at the door we charge them 20 bucks at the door
Sean

 

[markulous]

That was just my snotty way of saying I believe that you believe. We don't refuse anyone at the door we charge them 20 bucks at the door
Sean

Allright let's just end it at that...

 

[loki09789]

"There is no way I would turn up at another dojo with my teacher wearing a club T-shirt, let alone another kwoon (unless there was a friendly relationship already). It screams CHALLENGE!"

This view is one of my problems with TMA practices in the modern world. The idea that just walking through the door of another school wearing your schools TShirt as screaming a challenge is an anachronistic throw back to when schools were warring clans and walking through the door with out an invitiation or calling ahead is the same as an invasion.

We are living in the USA, 2004. Why couldn't wearing your school tshirt when you visit, announced or not, simply be making sure that the instructor/host knows that you are representing and not a potential student so he doesn't waste a sales pitch on you and treats you as a respected peer?

If you are confident of yourself and your system and goals, there should be nothing to hide - especially in one visit. If the idea is preservation, anyone who would be hunting for technique to steal will more than likely mess it up and lacks the character, skill and ability to really get it right. And, any wrong they might do with it is their problem.

Now, if they came into the school, payed for a month and came to class for that time, then went out and killed/maimed someone - you might have to get your ducks in a row so no one could prove colateral liability.

Paul M.

 

[tshadowchaser]

is view is one of my problems with TMA practices in the modern world. The idea that just walking through the door of another school wearing your schools TShirt as screaming a challenge is an anachronistic throw back to when schools were warring clans and walking through the door with out an invitiation or calling ahead is the same as an invasion.

I grow up in the arts when this was still the case. Walk in watch challangwe or say nice school, it was your choice.
I welcome anyone to watch my classes. Hell If they want they can work out with us and share ideas
If you walk in and challange that is allowed also , its just that they way i view you is different. :ripper:

 

[markulous]

"We are living in the USA, 2004. Why couldn't wearing your school tshirt when you visit, announced or not, simply be making sure that the instructor/host knows that you are representing and not a potential student so he doesn't waste a sales pitch on you and treats you as a respected peer?

EXACTLY.

 

[7starmantis]

Because that is exactly the same thing we are talking about here. For that to be the case you have to assume that the instructor will assume you are not there to take lessons. Just because you wear a t-shirt of another school means your not there to learn? In this age of MMA are we really going to believe that?

7sm

 

[clapping_tiger]

:soapbox: (bear with me this is going somewhere)
Are there bad Martial Arts schools that do well and they shouldn't be. Heck yeah. Are there bad Martial Artists who have won in tournaments when they clearly shouldn't have. Yep. Are there excellent martial artists who got their butts handed to them when faced with a self-defense situation. Sure. Just like any other industry or way of life (which ever way you want to look at it) there are people and places that succeed that should have failed and vice versa. But who are we to say that one way or another is not right, or wrong. I mean no disrespect to you or your instructor at all. I don't know either of you and have never met you. But in my opinion for your instructor to tell you that 98% of the dojo's he has been to are complete idiots seems to me like he is either: a little full of himself, a little old fashioned in his thinking that his style is the right one, or maybe in your area it holds true. I want to make it clear that I am not bashing him or challenging his or you beliefs but stating my thoughts on this topic. From the story you told in here is seems that your instructor may not be on good terms with these other schools. I am sure if he has said that to you, he has told others, and we all know how the world works. People talk. And I can guarantee you that his words have gotten back to them. And if they know that your instructor feels that way, to them by you coming in wearing your schools shirt and asking to watch a class, they may have just wanted to avoid any problems that my arise, such as you challenging their knowledge in front of their students. I am not saying that that is what you were going to do. I am just trying to look at it from their side.

Also, if you were watching them through the window. Isn't there a chance they may have seen you and your instructor watching? Then when you come in without your instructor, it does "look" fishy. Even if those were not your intentions. If you truly wanted to get a look for yourself, your best bet would have been to go in without any sign of school or style affiliation and ask questions. When the time is right, or if they ask if you do train. Be honest and tell them. By that time, they will have a feel for your intentions and not be as defensive.

My opinion comes from a sort of similar experience, except in our case there was a school(not open anymore I might add) in town,and it was no secret that my instructor, nor most of the people I knew did not like the guy. The way he ran his school reminded me of the Cobra Kai Dojo in the Karate Kid movie. All the students always wanted to fight and they traveled in a pack, they always got angry when they got beat sparring, or if they lost a fight there was alway an excuss. The Instructor quite honestly was a Punk and a crook (big surprise his school failed). After all, look at the crowd in his school. One time a purple belt from his school came into our school and watched a sparring class, he was snickering and making comments like he could beat everyone. Finally my instructor got fed up with it and told him he was welcome to come in a spar. He then said he had no gear with him, so we supplied him with some. The guy got stomped, and I don't mean beat up, but he got embarrassed. Needless to say many of our minds were tainted with the image of the students that go to this school. Well, some of the Black Belts wanted to continue training at our school and use the floor after their original school shut down. Most of us were against it, and our instructor talked it over with them and made it clear what type of students (and some names) were not welcome in his school. Then, the 2 Black Belts added to the list of students that would not be coming, that was cool and took some courage in my opinion. Now, two years later. I have two more good friends and a more open mind about this whole subject.

Sorry about the long post, but in short. Don't give them something to be defensive about, and don't group all students or instructors into one group because even in a bad school there can be good people, and the other way around. But I want to make it clear that I don't disagree with what you were doing, but they way it was done. You have to try to look at it from their point of view, especially if they are at odds with your instructor. Because if they don't get along with him, you will have to prove to them that you are not out to try to make them look foolish. I will now get off my :soapbox:

 

[7starmantis]

Excellent Post

 

[Cruentus]

In regards to class being "closed door."

When I teach I am not closed door. Anyone can watch, and the 1st lessons free. I am not worried about them seeing what I do, or stealing my methods...they still aren't me no matter what they "steal," plus pirating information is a fact of life in the martial arts; its not about the information, its how you use it anyways.

I do have to warn parents of teenagers and smaller kids who want to watch that my class is "PG-13". Some of the things we discuss and practice are just not suitable for younger kids; especially if we are talking about things like knives, or "rape defense," or overall tactical application.

PAUL

 

[markulous]

I agree that was a good post. I see what your trying to say clapping tiger.

I have calmed down a little since my first post. Let me tell you guys that are disagreeing with my thinking/how I am approaching this/actions/etc. Basically I am semi-new to martial arts itself. I started in September of last year. Prior to that I had been in boxing for a few years. When you meet someone else that box's it's like there is no secrets or game plan or whatever. It's like "Awesome! You box also! When do you wanna spar?" And then after we spar we bulls*** about boxing and life or whatever. So basically when this guy did that I got thrown this curve ball.

So I still don't agree with what he did. Put in his position I would not do that same. I can accept what he did atleast. And maybe I can understand the reason he did it. Except for the fact that feeling/vibe I got from him...but nevertheless, s*** happens, I'm moving on.

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, in boxing everyone is doing pretty much the same thing. Yes, technically some may do things a little different, but a hook is a hook. In martial arts there are millions of techniques that some feel very strongly about. Other feel strongly that this certain technique is useless while another has used said technique to defeat his opponants 150 times. This is why there is so much division and paranoia involved in MA in general.

7sm