Bad "Martial Arts"

[markulous]

My Sifu told me when I first started that 98% of the "dojos" he has been to they have been, to put it bluntly in my words, complete idiots. I took his word for it because he is a pretty honest guy. Tonight I wanted to see for myself though. One place turned off the open sign as we walked up(I was wearing my Open Hand Kung Fu shirt).

And the other place I actually got to go in and talk to the instructor there. We were watching from outside earlier and saw that in about 20 minutes there was going to be an adult class. My Sifu had to leave so I came back by myself. I went up to the man and asked politely, "Would it be okay if I watched one of your classes?" He looked at my shirt then looked at me and said "No it wouldn't." I again asked politely "Why not?" He said "We aren't going to allow that." I said Okay and turned on my heel and walked out. My Sifu said that some places actually think you are going to steal their "secrets".

I think it's just stupid and closed minded that someone would have that mindset. I would love for any individual in ANY art to come our school! Heaven forbid I actually find a mistake or two in my own art and adjust it!

What are your guys' experiences on this? What are your classes rules?

 

[Black Bear]

I don't recall what thread, I think a couple of us consensed that there are few actually bad martial arts.

What there is is bad studios, bad martial artists, etc.

 

[8253]

I do not believe that there is a bad Martial Art, maybe just some misguided instructors and students.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by markulous
My Sifu told me when I first started that 98% of the "dojos" he has been to they have been, to put it bluntly in my words, complete idiots. I took his word for it because he is a pretty honest guy. Tonight I wanted to see for myself though. One place turned off the open sign as we walked up(I was wearing my Open Hand Kung Fu shirt).

And the other place I actually got to go in and talk to the instructor there. We were watching from outside earlier and saw that in about 20 minutes there was going to be an adult class. My Sifu had to leave so I came back by myself. I went up to the man and asked politely, "Would it be okay if I watched one of your classes?" He looked at my shirt then looked at me and said "No it wouldn't." I again asked politely "Why not?" He said "We aren't going to allow that." I said Okay and turned on my heel and walked out. My Sifu said that some places actually think you are going to steal their "secrets".

I think it's just stupid and closed minded that someone would have that mindset. I would love for any individual in ANY art to come our school! Heaven forbid I actually find a mistake or two in my own art and adjust it!

What are your guys' experiences on this? What are your classes rules?

You were what I beleive is termed shopping. It doesn't go over well. You clearly wore your "colors" as it were to show that you were in fact the competition. This isn't about secrets either its about how they run a class. Why should they show other martial artists their game plan? You could just turn around and teach what you liked at your own school the next day. Shouldn't they get payed for this? Do you think all martial arts schools are stable businesses? That school could be on the verge of closing its doors for all you know.
If you want to see what they do, loose the shirt and pay for a couple months of lessons. Your instructor won't mind. Its naive to think these people are stupid, they are just business-men. The fact that between you and your instructor you have decided that everybody else is an idiot, I think I can see where the close minded thing may be a little closer to home.
Sean

 

[Shodan]

I dunno..........seems to me like the best policy is an open door policy........we've always allowed visitors and spectators to our dojo- and open spar nights as well. Maybe this guy was just wearing a martial arts t-shirt cuz he likes the martial arts and was truly checking into studios to find one to join.......how did he (the instructor) know? Didn't sound like markulous was being rude by just asking to watch. Could have lost a potential student like that. Not like anyone can pick up on all the studio's secrets in just one class viewing either...........unless the art is pitifully slim on material!!

:asian: :karate:

 

[markulous]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
You were what I beleive is termed shopping. It doesn't go over well. You clearly wore your "colors" as it were to show that you were in fact the competition. This isn't about secrets either its about how they run a class. Why should they show other martial artists their game plan? You could just turn around and teach what you liked at your own school the next day. Shouldn't they get payed for this? Do you think all martial arts schools are stable businesses? That school could be on the verge of closing its doors for all you know.
If you want to see what they do, loose the shirt and pay for a couple months of lessons. Your instructor won't mind. Its naive to think these people are stupid, they are just business-men. The fact that between you and your instructor you have decided that everybody else is an idiot, I think I can see where the close minded thing may be a little closer to home.
Sean

It was the first time I was there dude. ONE small lesson is not going to allow me to take all of his teachings. Most instructors give you one free lesson to begin with. If I was there every week then, yeah okay I could see. I am not in competition with his school.

Why should they show other martial artists their game plan

WTF? Again it's one lessons! Why wouldn't you want to discuss and openly share your art? We are not opposing football teams. He is the one that decided we are competing just because I don't go to his school.

You probably have the same mindset as that instructor. Heck you probably train at that place. You would find it taboo if I came in there and tried to talk about my martial art. Even more taboo is *GASP* sparring and showing each other our art! People get so caught up with their "school" that they forget the concept of martial arts because they think everybody is trying to screw them over.

And I said that 98% of the places HE WENT TO. Not 98% of every school out there.

Somewhere along the line martial arts just became about making money to a lot of people. There are actually a lot of good schools out there but it's unfortunate that you have schools and instructors like this that label themselves as a martial arts school. I'll just end it there for now...

 

[markulous]

Originally posted by Shodan
I dunno..........seems to me like the best policy is an open door policy........we've always allowed visitors and spectators to our dojo- and open spar nights as well. Maybe this guy was just wearing a martial arts t-shirt cuz he likes the martial arts and was truly checking into studios to find one to join.......how did he (the instructor) know? Didn't sound like markulous was being rude by just asking to watch. Could have lost a potential student like that. Not like anyone can pick up on all the studio's secrets in just one class viewing either...........unless the art is pitifully slim on material!!

:asian: :karate:

THANK YOU Shodan! Even though you don't see it I am bowing behind my computer screen to you. You nipped it right on the bud. :asian:

 

[Jimmy"TheBear"]

Originally posted by markulous
My Sifu told me when I first started that 98% of the "dojos" he has been to they have been, to put it bluntly in my words, complete idiots. I took his word for it because he is a pretty honest guy. Tonight I wanted to see for myself though. One place turned off the open sign as we walked up(I was wearing my Open Hand Kung Fu shirt).

And the other place I actually got to go in and talk to the instructor there. We were watching from outside earlier and saw that in about 20 minutes there was going to be an adult class. My Sifu had to leave so I came back by myself. I went up to the man and asked politely, "Would it be okay if I watched one of your classes?" He looked at my shirt then looked at me and said "No it wouldn't." I again asked politely "Why not?" He said "We aren't going to allow that." I said Okay and turned on my heel and walked out. My Sifu said that some places actually think you are going to steal their "secrets".

I think it's just stupid and closed minded that someone would have that mindset. I would love for any individual in ANY art to come our school! Heaven forbid I actually find a mistake or two in my own art and adjust it!

What are your guys' experiences on this? What are your classes rules?

I don't know, but, from what I have read here and further on this thread, maybe YOUR school, and/or sifu has a poor reputation that proceeds him. Your t-shirt seems to make people nervous, and your instructors comment about others. You might do well to talk to these other schools without your instructor around. Might be a bit enlightening.

 

[littleyahiko]

Originally posted by Shodan
I dunno..........seems to me like the best policy is an open door policy........we've always allowed visitors and spectators to our dojo- and open spar nights as well. Maybe this guy was just wearing a martial arts t-shirt cuz he likes the martial arts and was truly checking into studios to find one to join.......how did he (the instructor) know? Didn't sound like markulous was being rude by just asking to watch. Could have lost a potential student like that. Not like anyone can pick up on all the studio's secrets in just one class viewing either...........unless the art is pitifully slim on material!!

:asian: :karate:

At the school I practice at we have a no spectator policy. And although I'm sure some of it has to do with not letting people see our teaching methods, it's also for the safety of our students. I remember back when I was first starting I was completly nervous doing these crazy things called 'kicks' and 'punches' just in front of other people who were probably just as nervous as me, but they were there doing it with me. If I knew there would be people just sitting and staring, being able to watch everything, it would make me a heck of a lot more nervous. And having a blanket no spectator policy makes it easier to deal with the people who would be trouble coming in to watch and up to no good. There are exceptions, one can speak to the senior instructor and if he decides it is ok, a person can watch. And it's true I suppose you can lose students by not allowing them to watch. But frankly, I'd rather protect the privacy of the students that we already have, and if the prospective student doesn't understand that if they join, they would receive these same benefits, then maybe they aren't a person we'd want as a member of the school anyway.

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by littleyahiko
At the school I practice at we have a no spectator policy. And although I'm sure some of it has to do with not letting people see our teaching methods, it's also for the safety of our students. I remember back when I was first starting I was completly nervous doing these crazy things called 'kicks' and 'punches' just in front of other people who were probably just as nervous as me, but they were there doing it with me. If I knew there would be people just sitting and staring, being able to watch everything, it would make me a heck of a lot more nervous. And having a blanket no spectator policy makes it easier to deal with the people who would be trouble coming in to watch and up to no good. There are exceptions, one can speak to the senior instructor and if he decides it is ok, a person can watch. And it's true I suppose you can lose students by not allowing them to watch. But frankly, I'd rather protect the privacy of the students that we already have, and if the prospective student doesn't understand that if they join, they would receive these same benefits, then maybe they aren't a person we'd want as a member of the school anyway.

I don't think a total ban on spectators is called for unless you're getting weapons out and playing around with them. Even then, if you make sure the spectator stays well back, no-one's in any danger, it's just that when things start to get a bit more serious (like when live weapons are out) you legally have to get rid of the spectators, at least in the arts I do. Otherwise they aren't covered by insurance if anything goes wrong.

 

[littleyahiko]

Originally posted by Aegis
I don't think a total ban on spectators is called for unless you're getting weapons out and playing around with them. Even then, if you make sure the spectator stays well back, no-one's in any danger, it's just that when things start to get a bit more serious (like when live weapons are out) you legally have to get rid of the spectators, at least in the arts I do. Otherwise they aren't covered by insurance if anything goes wrong.

Our ban isn't for the spectators safety, although that is another aspect I hadn't thought of. It's for our students in the class, and for their privacy. If their mind is on the person staring at them, it might be harder for them to focus. And although that could be an interesting training drill. Normally that's not something we would want. I want my students to be focused on what they're doing, not worried that they're messing up in front of someone who is watching.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Our policy is to charge the spectators 20 bucks for a few private lessons. They may then check out any class that is going on in between particpating in the private lessons. This will weed out 90% of your walkins but thats the way the cookie crumbles. This might sound harsh but the main thrust of this practice is to target that adult to at the very least sign up there children. Needless to say you end up with hundreds of children. The school I train in right now does this, but has no contract obligations. I've worked in a school that did have contracts, as well. I prefer the no contract vibe myself.

 

[Nightingale]

at the school I train at, there is an open door policy. You want to know what we're about? come on in and get on the mat.

 

[Sapper6]

one thing that erks me is that you labeled your post "Bad Martial Arts". how can you say that...? it's THEIR policy. as far as having an open-mind, maybe you & your instructor should practice this. just because your school welcomes visitors & spectators doesnt mean that everyone else must as well. its funny that you can label their art "bad" just because they dont want a student (who proudly shows) from another school sitting in on their class...i got an experiment for ya Markulous...dress yourself in a Burger King uniform & go to your nearest McDonalds & ask to take a walk around the kitchen. i bet ya dont get very far.

they have their own reasons for acting toward you the way they did. if youre really curious as to what they teach there, take some lessons...who knows, they may decide to allow that, i dont know.

you see my friend, take a closer look within yourself & contemplate if you, yourself, has an open mind. regardless of how you believe a martial arts studio should be run, you dont have to agree with it...its all about respect.

Your friend in Zen,

Sapper6

 

[rmcrobertson]

I suspect that if you look back at the first sentence of this thread, you see what the problem is.

But that aside, I'd say it's too late to keep the doors and windows closed. Sure, maybe something gets lost--but it's lost anyway.

The days when the arts had to be kept secret, or kept "in the family," or had very strong religious ties are over. Let 'em go; it's useful perhaps to remember that back in those halcyon days, women couldn't train, the gwailo couldn't train, people outside the family or caste or village or country couldn't train...

Of course, some folks do like the old mystique of toughness that comes from the closed door and window. But again...open the doors, I say. Democracy about who comes in, if not on the mats.

And if you'vce got a lot of kids--well, possibility a) is that complete openess is safer for everybody, b) shutting parents out cuts down on their whininess.

 

[Nightingale]

where I train, we welcome folks from other schools... if you know something we don't, get in, get on the mat, and show us your stuff, and we'll return the favor. Nothing wrong with a little friendly information exchange. It'll make us both better martial artists.

 

[Black Bear]

rmcrobertson is correct. There are no secrets today. No, YOUR system might not be on tape in its entirety, but every theory, tactic, movement, and subtlety of your system IS on tape SOMEWHERE--and the DVD is being released this year.

Anyway, I think openness is a good approach, though if other folks don't practice it, there's no great loss to me. There's too much out there to learn, for me to care about insecure people like that.

They all quote Bruce Lee--the same Bruce Lee who said chided those who take a smug, prideful delight in secretiveness.

 

[7starmantis]

I have to agre with this post...

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
You were what I beleive is termed shopping. It doesn't go over well. You clearly wore your "colors" as it were to show that you were in fact the competition. This isn't about secrets either its about how they run a class. Why should they show other martial artists their game plan? You could just turn around and teach what you liked at your own school the next day. Shouldn't they get payed for this? Do you think all martial arts schools are stable businesses? That school could be on the verge of closing its doors for all you know.
If you want to see what they do, loose the shirt and pay for a couple months of lessons. Your instructor won't mind. Its naive to think these people are stupid, they are just business-men. The fact that between you and your instructor you have decided that everybody else is an idiot, I think I can see where the close minded thing may be a little closer to home.
Sean

In the business world you aren't allowed to look at the recipe for Jorge's Secret Sauce before you buy the rights to it. Its the same in any business. I'm not saying I agree with a no visitors policy, but I also don't agree that what they did makes them any less legitimate. Maybe they should have asked a few more questions, but it sounds like they played into your scenario nicely.

7sm

 

[Ceicei]

At my dojo, we welcome visitors and they can work out with us on the mats if they want. If the visitors want to work out more often, we invite them to sign up and join.

- Ceicei

 

[loki09789]

When I ran my own commercial school I had it happen the other way too. I made it a point of courtesy to visit the other schools in the area and one instructor, who shall remain nameless here, basically 'invited' me onto the floor to work out with them.

EVERYONE of his students that I worked with in that class acted in a very inhospitable and sneering way when I got a chance to work with them. It was very uncomfortable and honestly I had my 'finger on the switch' in case they really got stupid. I didn't think it would go that far, but it was seeming more and more likely as the class went on. CRAZY!

Paul M.

OH! I did have an instructor from another program come and 'work out with us' for a few work outs and then, when he opened his own program try to claim "ARNIS" on his window even though the only ARNIS experience was 3/4 work outs with my class and two seminars, I believe with Remy Presas of Modern Arnis... just remembered that.

Tim K (DOXN4CER) likes the quote 'It's not the art, it's the man" I think it fits here.