Atacx gym judo: Self defense flavio cantos strangle variant

[ATACX GYM]

http://youtu.be/S3CGJB1luNU

 

[Steve]

I don't think anyone trained would ever leave his right arm out exposed to let you work that counter. That's a rookie move. Makes it too easy to either attack the arm or get a deep undertook to sweep or take the back from the bottom.


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[Chris Parker]

That ain't Judo. It's overly convoluted. It's not self defence if it's sparring. It's not self defence if you're relying on a gi. It's not Judo when you follow none of the tactics, strategies, or mechanics of Judo. It's not "real life" if it's in sparring.

Honestly? It's messy and very low return. You may have managed to stumble into it with one person once, but to then equate that to "self defence" and teach/demonstrate it as such is just completely out of whack with reality.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I don't think anyone trained would ever leave his right arm out exposed to let you work that counter. That's a rookie move. Makes it too easy to either attack the arm or get a deep undertook to sweep or take the back from the bottom.


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At which point of the video are you directing this concern? Thanks for answering.

 

[Steve]

At the beginning when his hand is on your shoulder.

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[ATACX GYM]

That ain't Judo. It's overly convoluted. It's not self defence if it's sparring. It's not self defence if you're relying on a gi. It's not Judo when you follow none of the tactics, strategies, or mechanics of Judo. It's not "real life" if it's in sparring.

Honestly? It's messy and very low return. You may have managed to stumble into it with one person once, but to then equate that to "self defence" and teach/demonstrate it as such is just completely out of whack with reality.

I disagree with all of the foregoing.

Precisely how is what I did proof that it "ain't Judo" and precisely how did I not follow any Judo tactics, strategies or mechanics? Exactly precisely what are you basing this opinion of yours on?

Exactly how does using a gi prevent self-defense application?

Lastly, this was not a demonstration of a specific scripted technique. It was an answer to a question as to how I managed to pull this off several times against other striker-grapplers.

Exactly how do you define sparring, and how do you define self defence and how do these two definitions lack carryover?

Ex

 

[ATACX GYM]

At the beginning when his hand is on your shoulder.

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Thank you. Is there a time stamp or whatever demonstrating the position that you're referring to?

 

[Chris Parker]

I disagree with all of the foregoing.

Of course you do.

Precisely how is what I did proof that it "ain't Judo" and precisely how did I not follow any Judo tactics, strategies or mechanics? Exactly precisely what are you basing this opinion of yours on?

What you did is proof that it isn't Judo because, well, it isn't Judo. It's a mish-mash of different things that you've cobbled together, but there isn't any Judo there. And I'm basing this on having an understanding of what Judo is.

Exactly how does using a gi prevent self-defense application?

The gi provides grips and openings for techniques that are not present in "street clothes". The way you're using it just isn't possible for you to try to pull off the same thing against, say, a t-shirt. Due to that very different context, this isn't a self defence technique.

Lastly, this was not a demonstration of a specific scripted technique. It was an answer to a question as to how I managed to pull this off several times against other striker-grapplers.

My issue isn't how it came about, it's that you've labelled it as "self defence", and are therefore demonstrating it as such in this clip, as well as labeling it "Judo" when it clearly isn't.

Exactly how do you define sparring, and how do you define self defence and how do these two definitions lack carryover?

We're getting back to "what is sparring", are we? Okay... sparring is a training device in which two or more practitioners attempt to out-perform each other, typically within the confines of overt or implied rulesets, and within similar skillsets. Self defence has none of that. The issue with having sparring as self defence training is that it teaches the opposite of what you actually want to impart, tactically speaking.

Ex

Huh?

 

[ATACX GYM]

What you did is proof that it isn't Judo because, well, it isn't Judo. It's a mish-mash of different things that you've cobbled together, but there isn't any Judo there. And I'm basing this on having an understanding of what Judo is.



The gi provides grips and openings for techniques that are not present in "street clothes". The way you're using it just isn't possible for you to try to pull off the same thing against, say, a t-shirt. Due to that very different context, this isn't a self defence technique.

Your opinion that what I did isn't judo doesn't mean that it isn't Judo. You have not specified any Judo mechanics tactics etc etc that I violated or didn't employ that buttresses your position. You have simply restated your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, regardless of how wayward and denuded of fact that it may be.

The gi provides grips and openings for techniques that are not present in "street clothes". The way you're using it just isn't possible for you to try to pull off the same thing against, say, a t-shirt. Due to that very different context, this isn't a self defence technique.

Are you definitively saying that I cannot execute this technique on somebody wearing a t-shirt?

My issue isn't how it came about, it's that you've labelled it as "self defence", and are therefore demonstrating it as such in this clip, as well as labeling it "Judo" when it clearly isn't.

this technique can be used in a self-defense throwdown, although I haven't done so. Yet. Lol. You still haven't shown in any way shape or form how the above isn't Judo.

We're getting back to "what is sparring", are we? Okay... sparring is a training device in which two or more practitioners attempt to out-perform each other, typically within the confines of overt or implied rulesets, and within similar skillsets. Self defence has none of that. The issue with having sparring as self defence training is that it teaches the opposite of what you actually want to impart, tactically speaking.

We differ on the definition of sparring. You have told me what you think self defense ISN'T. Can you tell me what you think self defense IS? And what tactics are exclusively the purview of self defense? And how do you train these tactics?

 

[oaktree]

I guess you start off in a Kumi kata, At the 0:49 mark if someone has their knees on you preventing you to pass their guard than the attacker needs to change his positioning.
At the 1:02 mark if you are pushing him back then he needs to change his grip, seeing that your knee is on the inside and his on the outside he could possibly let go and get an ankle lock on you,or he could have put his leg over your knee to pass your guard. Your opponent's arm is holding his balance, which he could have used to hit you with or use it to wrap your arm with and give you another lock on it. At the 1:46 mark you leave space open with your leg he could wrap his arm inside your leg getting a leg lock, or opening your guard to pass it. To me it looks like some grappling mixed with your Kenpo but I do not see anything from the tactics used that looks like Judo. Just my obversations.

 

[Twin Fist]

cuz he doesnt know any judo maybe?

 

[frank raud]

I disagree with all of the foregoing.

Precisely how is what I did proof that it "ain't Judo" and precisely how did I not follow any Judo tactics, strategies or mechanics? Exactly precisely what are you basing this opinion of yours on?

Maximum effenciency, minimum effort. Ever heard of this concept?

Exactly how does using a gi prevent self-defense application?

Lastly, this was not a demonstration of a specific scripted technique. It was an answer to a question as to how I managed to pull this off several times against other striker-grapplers.

If this was not a specific scripted technique, why do you keep referring to how you did this, and he did that? If you are explaining how you manage to pull something off, and that is what you are demonstrating, it is scripted.

Exactly how do you define sparring, and how do you define self defence and how do these two definitions lack carryover?

Ex

Out of curiousity, as your sparring includes all attacks, how do you differentiate between sparring and self defense? Is one where the attacks are not pushed to their fullest conclusion?

 

[frank raud]

At around the 2.10 mark in the video, you have opened up your cousin's collar with your right hand, and inserted your left hand inside the collar, with your left forearm against your cousin's neck. As a "judo" application, why would you let go of the collar with your left hand to wrap a figure 4 onto your cousin's arm? Maximum effeiency,minimum effort. Rather than give up that grip, a judoka would be more inclined to switch the grip of the right hand to the other collar, pulling down and out with both arms, rapidly choking him out and negating the possibility of the push you were so concerned about you gave up that grip.

I'm sure you will say that this is just in the sport version of judo, but there are no neck cranks in judo. At around 3.35, you have managed to get another choke going, but rather than finish it there, after your speech, you explain how you continued to roll up into a kneeling position. You have a solid choke going, why the continued roll? Maximum effiency, minimum effort. Violated again.

Need to ask this. At around 4.10 mark, you say you are concerned for your cousin, so you let him go, but not the guy you did this to for real because he knows how to tap? Your cousin is wearing a black belt in the video, you introduce him as an assisant coach in your gym, and you seem concerned that your cousin doesn't know when to tap? I'm going to ask the question Kong soo do loves so much, who is his instructor?

 

[Steve]

Thank you. Is there a time stamp or whatever demonstrating the position that you're referring to?

From the point where you're taken to the ground to about 2:10, he is inexplicably leaving his arm exposed for no reason. You mention a tiger claw or hammer fist, but I don't see how.

From the bottom, you can work for an underhook to reverse the position or take his back. You could arm bar him, since he's being so agreeable. It's just not a good idea for him to leave that arm out.

What is more likely is that he'd switch his grip back to your knee and pass your guard. Or he could just simply disengage and stand back up. He's got a lot of options, but not if he leaves his arm in danger.

 

[ATACX GYM]

At around the 2.10 mark in the video, you have opened up your cousin's collar with your right hand, and inserted your left hand inside the collar, with your left forearm against your cousin's neck. As a "judo" application, why would you let go of the collar with your left hand to wrap a figure 4 onto your cousin's arm? Maximum effeiency,minimum effort. Rather than give up that grip, a judoka would be more inclined to switch the grip of the right hand to the other collar, pulling down and out with both arms, rapidly choking him out and negating the possibility of the push you were so concerned about you gave up that grip.

I'm sure you will say that this is just in the sport version of judo, but there are no neck cranks in judo. At around 3.35, you have managed to get another choke going, but rather than finish it there, after your speech, you explain how you continued to roll up into a kneeling position. You have a solid choke going, why the continued roll? Maximum effiency, minimum effort. Violated again.

Need to ask this. At around 4.10 mark, you say you are concerned for your cousin, so you let him go, but not the guy you did this to for real because he knows how to tap? Your cousin is wearing a black belt in the video, you introduce him as an assisant coach in your gym, and you seem concerned that your cousin doesn't know when to tap? I'm going to ask the question Kong soo do loves so much, who is his instructor?

At the 2:10 mark, my cousin simply broke the hold by using the "punch-push grip" therefore I could even attempt the X-choke or lapel choke you referred to. I didn't release the hold, he BROKE the hold before I could secure it. That happens during training. Kano's Maximum efficiency, minimum effort maxim is NOT violated.

There are neck cranks in Kosen Judo. Perhaps you meant there are no neck cranks in modern competition Judo? If so...I agree.

At around 3:35, the choke you're referring to works well and I HAVE finished people there...but you can counter it by quickly blocking my leg and very quickly turning toward and "ducking under" my right leg. You won't be in the best position in the world, but you won't be getting choked out [ as long as you defend the triangle choke counter to this countermove ]. It's hard to do, takes timing, but my cousin and the guy I was grappling with a few weeks ago are good at this counter. But...It's darn near impossible to counter if you complete the roll. That's why I completed the roll. Kano's maxim is again not violated.


At 4:10...my comment reflects the fact that I'm doing an instructional. Holding the choke and lock the way I did when I was grappling live while I was doing an instructional? Not good for my cousin's health. That's why I released the choke. I demonstrated the hold well enough to make my point. There really isn't a slow less painful way of doing it. I then released the hold to emphasize the power of the roll and the importance of doing it that way.

And I'm my cousin's instructor.

Thank you for your comments.

 

[oaktree]

Are you saying you are ranked in Kosen Judo?

By 1925 all joint-locks except elbow locks were totally prohibited together with neck cranks. Kosen rules being the Kodokan rules derivative did not allow leg-locks absolutely).

Kosen Judo is Kodokan Judo.

http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topic/18653-difference-kodokan-and-kosen/

Now I do not really have a problem saying you practice Newaza or use Kosen Judo rules but a Kosen Judoka if the termed is used correctly is someone who practices Judo at a school like Highschool, If you want to say a Kosen Judoka is someone who emphasis is Ne Waza thats fine but as said here:

Ok one more time there is no different styles of Judo there is only one style of Judo Kodokan. One more time, THERE IS ONLY ONE STYLE OF JUDO KODOKAN.

- http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81130&page=4

 

[Noah_Legel]

I don't have a black belt in any art, but I have been doing judo for a while in conjunction with karate, so I'll go ahead and give my input.

oaktree is correct--Kosen is a ruleset that a collection of schools adopted in Japan, but it was still Kodokan judo. Judo, as a martial art, does include leg locks and neck cranks, but they are no longer practiced by most judoka because they are illegal in competition. My first judo instructor (also my karate instructor) learned judo from someone who included those techniques because the person he learned from passed them on, etc.

This video demonstrates what appears to be kuzure jigoku-jime, or a modified hell choke. Jigoku-jime is in judo and is normally done from a back mounted crucifix position, whereas he is in a guard position applying a similar (not the same--there are certainly big differences) concept of isolating the arms, grabbing the lapel and using the leg to push his opponent into the choke. The entire explanation of the setup was unnecessary and detracts from the actual technique that was being demonstrated because you make it appear to require a specific set of conditions, whereas you could simply throw this up from guard in a number of situations. That said, your technique has a major, and I do mean MAJOR, flaw in that you never actually isolated BOTH arms--all he had to do to relieve the pressure from the choke and escape was push your leg off the back of his head.

As for what you did being judo...well...it was sort of judo.

ETA: If you want to get technical, the jigoku-jime I described with the leg over the head is already a kuzure (modified) version of the original.

 

[elder999]

Late to the party, but I do have rank in judo and jujutsu, so:

I don't have a black belt in any art, but I have been doing judo for a while in conjunction with karate, so I'll go ahead and give my input.

oaktree is correct--Kosen is a ruleset that a collection of schools adopted in Japan, but it was still Kodokan judo. Judo, as a martial art, does include leg locks and neck cranks, but they are no longer practiced by most judoka because they are illegal in competition. My first judo instructor (also my karate instructor) learned judo from someone who included those techniques because the person he learned from passed them on, etc.

This video demonstrates what appears to be kuzure jigoku-jime, or a modified hell choke. Jigoku-jime is in judo and is normally done from a back mounted crucifix position, whereas he is in a guard position applying a similar (not the same--there are certainly big differences) concept of isolating the arms, grabbing the lapel and using the leg to push his opponent into the choke. The entire explanation of the setup was unnecessary and detracts from the actual technique that was being demonstrated because you make it appear to require a specific set of conditions, whereas you could simply throw this up from guard in a number of situations. That said, your technique has a major, and I do mean MAJOR, flaw in that you never actually isolated BOTH arms--all he had to do to relieve the pressure from the choke and escape was push your leg off the back of his head.

As for what you did being judo...well...it was sort of judo.

This.:asian:

 

[Steve]

I don't have a black belt in any art, but I have been doing judo for a while in conjunction with karate, so I'll go ahead and give my input.

oaktree is correct--Kosen is a ruleset that a collection of schools adopted in Japan, but it was still Kodokan judo. Judo, as a martial art, does include leg locks and neck cranks, but they are no longer practiced by most judoka because they are illegal in competition. My first judo instructor (also my karate instructor) learned judo from someone who included those techniques because the person he learned from passed them on, etc.

This video demonstrates what appears to be kuzure jigoku-jime, or a modified hell choke. Jigoku-jime is in judo and is normally done from a back mounted crucifix position, whereas he is in a guard position applying a similar (not the same--there are certainly big differences) concept of isolating the arms, grabbing the lapel and using the leg to push his opponent into the choke. The entire explanation of the setup was unnecessary and detracts from the actual technique that was being demonstrated because you make it appear to require a specific set of conditions, whereas you could simply throw this up from guard in a number of situations. That said, your technique has a major, and I do mean MAJOR, flaw in that you never actually isolated BOTH arms--all he had to do to relieve the pressure from the choke and escape was push your leg off the back of his head.

As for what you did being judo...well...it was sort of judo.

I think we call that a bow and arrow...



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[frank raud]

At the 2:10 mark, my cousin simply broke the hold by using the "punch-push grip" therefore I could even attempt the X-choke or lapel choke you referred to. I didn't release the hold, he BROKE the hold before I could secure it. That happens during training. Kano's Maximum efficiency, minimum effort maxim is NOT violated.

You might want to look at the video again. Your words(not exact) as you get the grip(which your cousin patiently waits for you to apply, it's not like you're grappling) "I'm locked in tight" Once you have your grip, he pushes and you release. If your cousin somehow broke your grip, it is not visible, at least to me. Somehow you find it faster and more efficient to release a solid grip to play with his hand(which at that point is not striking, although you point out the potential)then wrap a figure 4, rather than move your dominant hand maybe 6 inches to sink in a cross choke?

You know, if you and zenjael were in the same room, I'm pretty sure the disturbance in the force would be felt for at a 6 block radius.