Asking To Test

[JR 137]

It's not so much as a rule but a guideline. There are a few CI in our area that feel that one should not grade to Sandan if they haven't competed in knockdown (at any level). The reason being, how can you teach a knockdown style of karate if you haven't put your training (and wellbeing ) on the line. Success at competition doesn't necessarily mean to win a tournament. It could very well mean just to compete and survive . The Kyokushin community is very well connected so if you have competed internationally, you will most likely be known to others that have competed at that level. If you have competed at a regional level or have never competed before, that will also be known as soon as you step on the tatami to train .

Very good points. By success, I meant that the syllabi don’t say anything about winning; simply that the person competed.

But then again, to compete at a national or international level, you’ve typically got to win at lower levels to qualify.

I really like the theory behind it, or better yet the spirit of it. It gets people out of their comfort zones. It forces people to face their insecurities. It keeps people honest by making them spar against people outside their immediate circle. It shows who’s teaching what.

The downside is not everyone should be made to compete in order to be eligible to promote.

But I like it as a rule that can be waived under the right circumstances better than a guideline. People come up with reasons to not follow guidelines; rules get adhered to far often than guidelines. Maybe that’s a matter of semantics though.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Reminds me of working in IT.
I need an account created for my new hire.
Okay, submit Form 1234 and I'll get it done.
I'll do that.
(The next day) My new hire still doesn't have the account.
I'm sorry, I didn't see Form 1234 come in. I'll check again...yeah, I don't have it yet.
Oh, that's right. I'll get it done.
(A week later) How come my new hire still doesn't have their account?
Have you submitted Form 1234 yet?
No. Do I have to submit that form?
Yes.
Ok.

(A week later, from my boss) So-and-so says you won't create an account for her new hire and you won't tell her why.

This is why emails are so helpful. Even if it's an in person conversation, send an email referencing the convo, and reminding them what they need to do. It sucks you have to send an email to cyoa from others stupidity though

 

[Yokozuna514]

Very good points. By success, I meant that the syllabi don’t say anything about winning; simply that the person competed.

But then again, to compete at a national or international level, you’ve typically got to win at lower levels to qualify.

I really like the theory behind it, or better yet the spirit of it. It gets people out of their comfort zones. It forces people to face their insecurities. It keeps people honest by making them spar against people outside their immediate circle. It shows who’s teaching what.

The downside is not everyone should be made to compete in order to be eligible to promote.

But I like it as a rule that can be waived under the right circumstances better than a guideline. People come up with reasons to not follow guidelines; rules get adhered to far often than guidelines. Maybe that’s a matter of semantics though.

Yes, typically to compete at the national and international level it is highly recommended that you begin at the local and regional level first. There are some instances in the past where countries have put in fighters in international tournaments but it is pretty clear that they do not belong about 10 seconds after you hear the work 'hajime' .

Putting yourself in any contest such as knockdown will certainly take you out of your comfort zone. You generally have no idea who your opponent is and how much they have trained. Even in weight tournaments, the belt is of little help to determine the skills or experience of your opponent so your training quickly gets tested for efficacy. That is the point of knockdown. To learn the truth about oneself. Are you as good as you believe. Have you put in enough time to learn what you need to learn against an opponent whose main goal is to knock you out or at the very least incapacitate you for at least 3 seconds.

I can understand how you would feel it is limiting to make everyone compete to be promoted within the system but the flip side of the argument is that if you want to progress in this system which that includes knockdown, shouldn't you know what it feels like to step onto the tatami yourself and be in that exact situation ? How can you teach something you only know the theory or more patently how can you understand the limits of your students when you do not know your own limits ?

Call it a rule or a guideline, I believe we are talking about the same thing. Integrity is what you do when no one is looking and the truth of your training will always come out on the tatami.

 

[skribs]

This is why emails are so helpful. Even if it's an in person conversation, send an email referencing the convo, and reminding them what they need to do. It sucks you have to send an email to cyoa from others stupidity though

This was in email.

 

[JR 137]

Yes, typically to compete at the national and international level it is highly recommended that you begin at the local and regional level first. There are some instances in the past where countries have put in fighters in international tournaments but it is pretty clear that they do not belong about 10 seconds after you hear the work 'hajime' .

Putting yourself in any contest such as knockdown will certainly take you out of your comfort zone. You generally have no idea who your opponent is and how much they have trained. Even in weight tournaments, the belt is of little help to determine the skills or experience of your opponent so your training quickly gets tested for efficacy. That is the point of knockdown. To learn the truth about oneself. Are you as good as you believe. Have you put in enough time to learn what you need to learn against an opponent whose main goal is to knock you out or at the very least incapacitate you for at least 3 seconds.

I can understand how you would feel it is limiting to make everyone compete to be promoted within the system but the flip side of the argument is that if you want to progress in this system which that includes knockdown, shouldn't you know what it feels like to step onto the tatami yourself and be in that exact situation ? How can you teach something you only know the theory or more patently how can you understand the limits of your students when you do not know your own limits ?

Call it a rule or a guideline, I believe we are talking about the same thing. Integrity is what you do when no one is looking and the truth of your training will always come out on the tatami.

I completely agree with what you’re saying. But there are and should be exceptions to every rule.

For example let’s say you’ve got a nidan who’s fulfilled all his requirements for that grade, then gets injured permanently but can still train at an acceptable level. Training is fine but knockdown competition is too risky. Do you never promote that person ever again simply because he didn’t compete at a level sandan requires? Or you’ve got a guy like my father who’s a blue collar guy (mechanic) and can definitely handle himself and decides to take up Kyokushin today at 70 years old (it’s still hard to believe he turned 70 a few months ago). Does he really need to compete against 20 somethings just to be eligible to promote? Knowing my father and Kyokushin, he’d be fine to train, but he wouldn’t compete. He’d simply say here’s not there to compete. And the dojo would probably lose a good student. Not from a financial standpoint but from a having the right people training standpoint.

Or take someone in my shoes. The only knockdown tournaments left near me is the open tournament in NYC. Almost 3 hours away. So if I have to compete to be eligible for shodan, I’ve got to compete against guys who’ve actually won European championships and the like. That’s the only competition I can go to without getting on an airplane that I know of. I see nothing wrong with competing against those guys if I’m a nidan or sandan, but as a kyu rank? There’s a good chance I could get seriously injured or worse. Unless you’re Dolph Lundgren pretending to be a brown belt so you can compete with those guys , you’re going to get killed. Realistically speaking, there’s no proving anything under those conditions.

The competition rule makes sense for the overall student body, but doesn’t make sense for a select few individuals under certain circumstances. Having an age and disability waiver/clause to the rule makes sense to me.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I completely agree with what you’re saying. But there are and should be exceptions to every rule.

For example let’s say you’ve got a nidan who’s fulfilled all his requirements for that grade, then gets injured permanently but can still train at an acceptable level. Training is fine but knockdown competition is too risky. Do you never promote that person ever again simply because he didn’t compete at a level sandan requires? Or you’ve got a guy like my father who’s a blue collar guy (mechanic) and can definitely handle himself and decides to take up Kyokushin today at 70 years old (it’s still hard to believe he turned 70 a few months ago). Does he really need to compete against 20 somethings just to be eligible to promote? Knowing my father and Kyokushin, he’d be fine to train, but he wouldn’t compete. He’d simply say here’s not there to compete. And the dojo would probably lose a good student. Not from a financial standpoint but from a having the right people training standpoint.

Or take someone in my shoes. The only knockdown tournaments left near me is the open tournament in NYC. Almost 3 hours away. So if I have to compete to be eligible for shodan, I’ve got to compete against guys who’ve actually won European championships and the like. That’s the only competition I can go to without getting on an airplane that I know of. I see nothing wrong with competing against those guys if I’m a nidan or sandan, but as a kyu rank? There’s a good chance I could get seriously injured or worse. Unless you’re Dolph Lundgren pretending to be a brown belt so you can compete with those guys , you’re going to get killed. Realistically speaking, there’s no proving anything under those conditions.

The competition rule makes sense for the overall student body, but doesn’t make sense for a select few individuals under certain circumstances. Having an age and disability waiver/clause to the rule makes sense to me.

Actually the exception lies in the hands of the CI. He is the one that has been watching you train and he is the one best qualified to know when an exception, if any, should be granted and I am ok with that.

If you had a Nidan that got injured and still wanted to train and continue to participate, I would see nothing wrong with that. If he wanted to grade to Sandan and the CI felt that he was qualified to do that, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that. Not all Shodan gradings are the same. Some are more demanding than others even within the same dojo and we all accept the word of our CI that the gradings are tailored to the individuals grading. Am I salty that my grading was far longer and more comprehensive than a few that I have attended before ? No I take it as a point of pride. Most of the people that attended my grading also know what I am now capable of so what reason would I have to be salty about the differences.

If your dad is 70 and would like to take up Kyokushin (god bless him) I would certainly encourage him to do so. Competing at a tournament is generally encouraged at 4th kyu for kumite but I expect your dad wouldn't find many opponents of his vintage so I expect this would not be a hinderance for his promotion.

I actually don't think that it is too unreasonable to drive 3 hours to go to a competition over the weekend. I am sure you have travelled longer and farther for other sports. Just the opportunity alone to compete with a larger pool of fighters is a lesson in itself. Let's not forget the feeling of putting it all on the line against a guy doing the exact same thing. There is something to be said for the bond that is created by that moment.

Generally speaking you will not be matched up with someone who has a lot more experience than you do. Your CI would make sure of that (or he should). No one learns anything from an easy match and that is not watch Kyokushin is all about. It begins and ends with respect.

Yes, I can certainly see how there are some exceptions to the guidelines and that is why I think of them more as guidelines. Ultimately, your CI is the one that applies them and he or she is the best one to ensure you grow as a karateka in the safest way possible.

 

[JR 137]

Actually the exception lies in the hands of the CI. He is the one that has been watching you train and he is the one best qualified to know when an exception, if any, should be granted and I am ok with that.

If you had a Nidan that got injured and still wanted to train and continue to participate, I would see nothing wrong with that. If he wanted to grade to Sandan and the CI felt that he was qualified to do that, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that. Not all Shodan gradings are the same. Some are more demanding than others even within the same dojo and we all accept the word of our CI that the gradings are tailored to the individuals grading. Am I salty that my grading was far longer and more comprehensive than a few that I have attended before ? No I take it as a point of pride. Most of the people that attended my grading also know what I am now capable of so what reason would I have to be salty about the differences.

If your dad is 70 and would like to take up Kyokushin (god bless him) I would certainly encourage him to do so. Competing at a tournament is generally encouraged at 4th kyu for kumite but I expect your dad wouldn't find many opponents of his vintage so I expect this would not be a hinderance for his promotion.

I actually don't think that it is too unreasonable to drive 3 hours to go to a competition over the weekend. I am sure you have travelled longer and farther for other sports. Just the opportunity alone to compete with a larger pool of fighters is a lesson in itself. Let's not forget the feeling of putting it all on the line against a guy doing the exact same thing. There is something to be said for the bond that is created by that moment.

Generally speaking you will not be matched up with someone who has a lot more experience than you do. Your CI would make sure of that (or he should). No one learns anything from an easy match and that is not watch Kyokushin is all about. It begins and ends with respect.

Yes, I can certainly see how there are some exceptions to the guidelines and that is why I think of them more as guidelines. Ultimately, your CI is the one that applies them and he or she is the best one to ensure you grow as a karateka in the safest way possible.

I’ve traveled 3 hours to compete. I did it 3 years ago to compete in Seido’s 40th anniversary tournament.

The Kyokushin tournament in NYC is the North American open (or US open?). I don’t think there’s a lower level portion of it. So if you have a 4th kyu who’s required to compete to be eligible to test for 3rd, that’s the only competition within reasonable distance. 3 hours is reasonable IMO.

When I test for shodan I’ll have to make that trip I think 4 times during a few week period. It’s going to be inconvenient and the cost is going add up, but it is what it is.

All the Kyokushin competition stuff is hypothetical. My father’s not looking to train, but he’d be capable of he wanted to.

Again, we’re on the same page. It should be a rule that CIs can waive. I was just giving examples of when a CI should. I remember the kyokushin4life guys in Europe I believe, saying there was the requirement and debating exceptions to it. Not all CIs were allowing exceptions. But they’ve also got a lot more lower level competitions available than we do. Here it seems like North American open or nothing. There’s some point fighting competitions, but they’re not Kyokushin sanctioned so I don’t know if they’d technically fulfill requirements.

Again, all hypothetical.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I’ve traveled 3 hours to compete. I did it 3 years ago to compete in Seido’s 40th anniversary tournament.

The Kyokushin tournament in NYC is the North American open (or US open?). I don’t think there’s a lower level portion of it. So if you have a 4th kyu who’s required to compete to be eligible to test for 3rd, that’s the only competition within reasonable distance. 3 hours is reasonable IMO.

When I test for shodan I’ll have to make that trip I think 4 times during a few week period. It’s going to be inconvenient and the cost is going add up, but it is what it is.

All the Kyokushin competition stuff is hypothetical. My father’s not looking to train, but he’d be capable of he wanted to.

Again, we’re on the same page. It should be a rule that CIs can waive. I was just giving examples of when a CI should. I remember the kyokushin4life guys in Europe I believe, saying there was the requirement and debating exceptions to it. Not all CIs were allowing exceptions. But they’ve also got a lot more lower level competitions available than we do. Here it seems like North American open or nothing. There’s some point fighting competitions, but they’re not Kyokushin sanctioned so I don’t know if they’d technically fulfill requirements.

Again, all hypothetical.

I have never heard competing was a strict requirement for a kyu rank but I have heard it was highly recommended for Dan ranks (should you pursuing a teaching path eventually) in some countries. Again, I can understand the desire of some CI's to make this part of their curriculum. In the same respect instructors are 'required' to do warm ups instead of standing at the head of the class with their thumbs in their belts as the kyu ranks sweat it out, it is part of the culture of a Kyokushin dojo. It has more to do with 'earning' the respect of your students as opposed to expecting it to come with the belt. If you have competed in Knockdown your opinion should carry more weight because of your personal experience.

I believe we are on the same page when it comes to these guidelines and the CI's prerogative to enforce them. He is, after all, the best qualified person to set the curriculum requirements and produce the best students that he can. The CI has to use their judgement on how best to cultivate practitioners given the location that they are in. Too stringent a curriculum in a place where people are not seeking a tough curriculum and their business will be a failure. Too lax a curriculum and the students will not be up to par.

We are fortunate where we are as there are a number of high quality local and regional tournaments in our area. Do you know who organizes the NA Open in NYC ? Is it different from the IKO 1 All American Open ?

 

[dvcochran]

What nonsense I'm paying to be there so I'll ask if I'm testing because I have a right to. My grandad used to do karate and for some reason the instructor didn't want him to grade even though all the other instructors thought he was ready. So he asked the head instructor and asked if he could have a chance to show he was ready and guess what the instructor watched and agreed he was ready and apologised for not giving him a fair chance at first. People need to stop treating an instructor like a god they're human beings so I will talk to any instructor like one and if an instructors being a jerk I'll call him out on it

Let me make sure I understood what you said. Since you are paying you dues you have the right to test?

 

[Headhunter]

Let me make sure I understood what you said. Since you are paying you dues you have the right to test?

You need to read again. I pay so I have every right to ask if I can.

This is what I wrote read it slowly to avoid confusion.

"What nonsense I'm paying to be there so I'll ASK if I'm testing because I have a right to. "

Now if you're still confused feel free to ask.

 

[dvcochran]

You need to read again. I pay so I have every right to ask if I can.

This is what I wrote read it slowly to avoid confusion.

"What nonsense I'm paying to be there so I'll ASK if I'm testing because I have a right to. "

Now if you're still confused feel free to ask.

Yea, I'm still confused.
I have read the opening sentence (which has bad grammar) several times. I read it as you saying "of course I am going to ask to test because I am paying to be there". As if paying for class is the only precursor for testing.

 

[Headhunter]

Yea, I'm still confused.
I have read the opening sentence (which has bad grammar) several times. I read it as you saying "of course I am going to ask to test because I am paying to be there". As if paying for class is the only precursor for testing.

Yeah there's the word A-S-K that spells the word ask. I didn't say I'd demand to or that I was entitled to test I said I will ask if I can and not be to scared to open my mouth like some people are. If they say no you're not testing then fine whatever but I'm still going to ask. Confused still?

 

[JR 137]

I have never heard competing was a strict requirement for a kyu rank but I have heard it was highly recommended for Dan ranks (should you pursuing a teaching path eventually) in some countries. Again, I can understand the desire of some CI's to make this part of their curriculum. In the same respect instructors are 'required' to do warm ups instead of standing at the head of the class with their thumbs in their belts as the kyu ranks sweat it out, it is part of the culture of a Kyokushin dojo. It has more to do with 'earning' the respect of your students as opposed to expecting it to come with the belt. If you have competed in Knockdown your opinion should carry more weight because of your personal experience.

I believe we are on the same page when it comes to these guidelines and the CI's prerogative to enforce them. He is, after all, the best qualified person to set the curriculum requirements and produce the best students that he can. The CI has to use their judgement on how best to cultivate practitioners given the location that they are in. Too stringent a curriculum in a place where people are not seeking a tough curriculum and their business will be a failure. Too lax a curriculum and the students will not be up to par.

We are fortunate where we are as there are a number of high quality local and regional tournaments in our area. Do you know who organizes the NA Open in NYC ? Is it different from the IKO 1 All American Open ?

I think it’s the IKO1 All America Open.

There used to be a few good semi local knockdown tournaments for all levels when I was training that in the mid 90s. Last I heard the tournament in NYC was the pretty much the only one left and there wasn’t any lower level divisions. That person could’ve been misinformed about the divisions though.

I think MMA did some damage to knockdown competition and enrollment numbers. Add to that people just don’t want to put the blood sweat and tears into it like they used to, and you’ve got less people into it.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I think it’s the IKO1 All America Open.

There used to be a few good semi local knockdown tournaments for all levels when I was training that in the mid 90s. Last I heard the tournament in NYC was the pretty much the only one left and there wasn’t any lower level divisions. That person could’ve been misinformed about the divisions though.

I think MMA did some damage to knockdown competition and enrollment numbers. Add to that people just don’t want to put the blood sweat and tears into it like they used to, and you’ve got less people into it.

I think Rochester still has 'Ring Wars' and there are some offshoot tournaments still around if I am not mistaken but aside from inter dojo invitationals I think the tournament scene in the north east is fairly limited unless you head north across the border. Not going to get into all the politics as to how we got here but suffice it say that it hasn't helped.

I am sure MMA gyms have put a dent into knockdown competitions and enrolment numbers in the US, possibly in Canada too. As in most things, it is the quality of instruction you receive that is not always assured. Sure there are great places to train and learn MMA but one must do their research and apply the same logic to finding a good gym as they do for finding a good dojo.

The great thing about living in North America is that we have so much choice in how we want to get and stay in shape. I can't speak about how people do not want to put in the blood, sweat and tears to learn how to fight but it seems like the 'need' to defend yourself these days is overshadowed by the ability for people to protect themselves by flashing their cel phone camera. One definitely takes a lot less sweat that is for sure.

 

[dvcochran]

Yeah there's the word A-S-K that spells the word ask. I didn't say I'd demand to or that I was entitled to test I said I will ask if I can and not be to scared to open my mouth like some people are. If they say no you're not testing then fine whatever but I'm still going to ask. Confused still?

We are getting closer. Asking aside, do expect to test because you have paid you financial dues?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We are getting closer. Asking aside, do expect to test because you have paid you financial dues?

I thought he made it pretty clear he is entitled to ASK, but not to test. If the instructor said "not yet", he'd be okay with that.

 

[dvcochran]

I thought he made it pretty clear he is entitled to ASK, but not to test. If the instructor said "not yet", he'd be okay with that.

I get that. So let's draw a scenario. A person is set up on an annual membership with a monthly draw. The school regularly test every 3-4 months and this is commonly known. The curriculum is commonly known. The school offers unlimited classes or at least 3-4 classes/week for all students. The student elects to attend only 1-2 times/week and is not progressing as quickly as others with the same time-in-grade. Testing time comes around and the student thinks they should test simply because they have been paying their dues.
I have seen this at multiple schools and it is frequently a topic at our owners meetings. It is the most annoying topic I can think of. Some of the students come around and figure it out. Some simply disappear. Saddening and frustrating.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I get that. So let's draw a scenario. A person is set up on an annual membership with a monthly draw. The school regularly test every 3-4 months and this is commonly known. The curriculum is commonly known. The school offers unlimited classes or at least 3-4 classes/week for all students. The student elects to attend only 1-2 times/week and is not progressing as quickly as others with the same time-in-grade. Testing time comes around and the student thinks they should test simply because they have been paying their dues.
I have seen this at multiple schools and it is frequently a topic at our owners meetings. It is the most annoying topic I can think of. Some of the students come around and figure it out. Some simply disappear. Saddening and frustrating.

This can be an issue even at schools where testing isn't scheduled. The places I trained at that used testing always made it clear testing was at the instructor's discretion (and pleasure), not the student's. That didn't stop some students from getting upset when they were told "no".

 

[dvcochran]

This can be an issue even at schools where testing isn't scheduled. The places I trained at that used testing always made it clear testing was at the instructor's discretion (and pleasure), not the student's. That didn't stop some students from getting upset when they were told "no".

Agree. Somewhere in all this is the "coach 'em up aspect". If the instructor has done their job it should be easy to say no if necessary. IHMO, easier that the student already knows they are not ready and doesn't ask in the first place. Expectation is a powerful motivator.

 

[JR 137]

I get that. So let's draw a scenario. A person is set up on an annual membership with a monthly draw. The school regularly test every 3-4 months and this is commonly known. The curriculum is commonly known. The school offers unlimited classes or at least 3-4 classes/week for all students. The student elects to attend only 1-2 times/week and is not progressing as quickly as others with the same time-in-grade. Testing time comes around and the student thinks they should test simply because they have been paying their dues.
I have seen this at multiple schools and it is frequently a topic at our owners meetings. It is the most annoying topic I can think of. Some of the students come around and figure it out. Some simply disappear. Saddening and frustrating.

Instead of a minimum time frame, have a minimum number of classes. Or a minimum of time AND classes. Our syllabus states a minimum number of classes and time. My teacher looks at the number of classes, not so much at time for kyu ranks. There have been people who tested earlier because they had more than enough classes in. But they were always ready to test.

Stress it’s a MINIMUM and not a rule that they have to test after X classes and/or time.

Example:
Promotion from to 1st kyu
...(Skipping parts about all previous material, requirements, CI’s approval et al)...
“Minimum 6 months of training AND 60 classes since last promotion.”

If your current interval is 3 months, take the minimum number of classes you think they should attend per week and do the math. Make it a number they can honestly hit, given there aren’t the same number of weeks every month, dojo closings for holidays, etc. 10 classes per month sounds like a good average to me.