Asking To Test

[JR 137]

First you would have to know if its OK to ask, you're not going to know if its OK to ask without asking in the first place.

Both places I trained at told me it wasn’t ok to ask BEFORE I actually signed up. I’d assume most places tell you the protocol either when you start or when testing time is coming up for your first time. Also, most places are (or at least should be) lenient with beginners. Let’s say neither of my teachers made it clear when I started, if I asked after a few months, they’d politely tell me the policy. If they told me the policy and I asked anyway, then there’s an issue that needs to be addressed better.

 

[geezer]

Photon Guy: Sorry if this has been said before, as I admit that I haven't read the entire thread ...but if memory serves me at all, this particular question about whether or not it is acceptable to ask to test has been a major concern of yours since you first began posting here going on five years ago! What's up with that???

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Other than walking through it that one night a few weeks ag, I haven’t done it in quite some time. It won’t be pretty.

You'll be in the video, so that goes without saying.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Both places I trained at told me it wasn’t ok to ask BEFORE I actually signed up. I’d assume most places tell you the protocol either when you start or when testing time is coming up for your first time. Also, most places are (or at least should be) lenient with beginners. Let’s say neither of my teachers made it clear when I started, if I asked after a few months, they’d politely tell me the policy. If they told me the policy and I asked anyway, then there’s an issue that needs to be addressed better.

I would assume most places would mention it if it matters much. If it's not mentioned - in most cases - it's probably not a big deal. They may not be willing to answer the question directly, but would probably not object to the asking.

That's excepting the relatively few ego-tripping folks who like to lay traps to assert their dominance.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Photon Guy: Sorry if this has been said before, as I admit that I haven't read the entire thread ...but if memory serves me at all, this particular question about whether or not it is acceptable to ask to test has been a major concern of yours since you first began posting here going on five years ago! What's up with that???

Yes it has been and its because I haven't really made my point at least not to the extent that I have hoped to. This is my bad as I haven't been saying it the right way. I've got a communication problem and while I've worked on it quite a bit I still do need more work so I will continue to do so.

Anyway, as best as I can put it, the point is this. If, as a student you hit a plateau in rank advancement where its taking you significantly longer then you expect to test and/or promote, at that point would it be a problem to ask or say something about it?

 

[skribs]

I would assume most places would mention it if it matters much. If it's not mentioned - in most cases - it's probably not a big deal. They may not be willing to answer the question directly, but would probably not object to the asking.

That's excepting the relatively few ego-tripping folks who like to lay traps to assert their dominance.

Either that, or it's something they weren't thinking about during the onboarding process, or it's something they figured it was a rule the new student wouldn't need to know until they started thinking about testing.

 

[skribs]

Let's just say you're clearly not ready to test yet.

So he's not able to test until he can read his instructor's mind?

 

[skribs]

If, as a student you hit a plateau in rank advancement where its taking you significantly longer then you expect to test and/or promote, at that point would it be a problem to ask or say something about it?

You can ask what you need to do in order to prepare for your test. "Master/instructor, I notice that I have been at my belt for a long time now. I want to know what techniques I should be working on in order to advance." (Or something along those lines). This tells your Master that you're not trying to demand that you be tested for promotion, and shows that you're seeking guidance on where they want you to improve. Chances are, if you've plateaued, there's something they're looking for you to improve before you test.

It also has the benefit that maybe you're well on track, and they've just kind of missed you (depending on the size of your school, it can happen). So if you are ready, maybe this will give them the idea that they should check you. It could also be something else, such as your time-in-grade.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes it has been and its because I haven't really made my point at least not to the extent that I have hoped to. This is my bad as I haven't been saying it the right way. I've got a communication problem and while I've worked on it quite a bit I still do need more work so I will continue to do so.

Anyway, as best as I can put it, the point is this. If, as a student you hit a plateau in rank advancement where its taking you significantly longer then you expect to test and/or promote, at that point would it be a problem to ask or say something about it?

I would think in almost any school, if you ask about the plateau in learning (rather than why you're stuck at a rank), there would be no issue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Either that, or it's something they weren't thinking about during the onboarding process, or it's something they figured it was a rule the new student wouldn't need to know until they started thinking about testing.

Perhaps. My point was that if it's a big deal, they'll probably bring it up early. Otherwise, it's likely to be not a big deal.

 

[skribs]

I actually had a student come up to me and ask me if it was ok for him to ask the Master for a test notification if he hasn't gotten one yet. I thought of this thread.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So he's not able to test until he can read his instructor's mind?

Well Im certainly not ready to test at Dirty Dog's school, or in his case, demonstrate and be promoted since that's how I recall its done at his school. Why? Because Im not a student there. To be able to test or promote at a school, first you have to be a student there.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You can ask what you need to do in order to prepare for your test. "Master/instructor, I notice that I have been at my belt for a long time now. I want to know what techniques I should be working on in order to advance." (Or something along those lines). This tells your Master that you're not trying to demand that you be tested for promotion, and shows that you're seeking guidance on where they want you to improve. Chances are, if you've plateaued, there's something they're looking for you to improve before you test.

It also has the benefit that maybe you're well on track, and they've just kind of missed you (depending on the size of your school, it can happen). So if you are ready, maybe this will give them the idea that they should check you. It could also be something else, such as your time-in-grade.

That's basically what Im saying. Lets say it takes you eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. Now, a year after making 1st Kyu you have still not tested for and/or been promoted to 1st Dan. At that point I don't think it would be wrong to ask or say something about it, to ask why you haven't tested for or been promoted to 1st Dan and what you need to do in order to get to 1st Dan, what you need to work on, ect. If it takes eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu then it should take that long to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan, or maybe a year at the most.

 

[dvcochran]

That's basically what Im saying. Lets say it takes you eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. Now, a year after making 1st Kyu you have still not tested for and/or been promoted to 1st Dan. At that point I don't think it would be wrong to ask or say something about it, to ask why you haven't tested for or been promoted to 1st Dan and what you need to do in order to get to 1st Dan, what you need to work on, ect. If it takes eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu then it should take that long to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan, or maybe a year at the most.

I have no idea if this is your situation but I would say be careful about thinking calendar time it the automatic trigger for advancing. What is most important is how much actual training time you have put in for a given calendar time. That said, I see no issue with asking your instructor what the curriculum is to your next belt. Frankly, I feel that should be common informatio for all students.

 

[JR 137]

That's basically what Im saying. Lets say it takes you eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu. Now, a year after making 1st Kyu you have still not tested for and/or been promoted to 1st Dan. At that point I don't think it would be wrong to ask or say something about it, to ask why you haven't tested for or been promoted to 1st Dan and what you need to do in order to get to 1st Dan, what you need to work on, ect. If it takes eight months to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu then it should take that long to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan, or maybe a year at the most.

Like great comedy, asking why you’re not being tested is all in the delivery.

 

[JR 137]

I have no idea if this is your situation but I would say be careful about thinking calendar time it the automatic trigger for advancing. What is most important is how much actual training time you have put in for a given calendar time. That said, I see no issue with asking your instructor what the curriculum is to your next belt. Frankly, I feel that should be common informatio for all students.

Everyone should have a copy of the syllabus which should include all requirements for each rank and promoting to the next rank, or at least access to one.

Every time I’ve promoted, I’ve always asked my teacher what the requirements are for that rank and minimum time to the next rank. He’s never had a problem answering me. I told him every time “it’s the teacher in me. I need to know the curriculum.” He chuckles and says “everyone should know what’s expected of them and what they need to do to advance.”

We have a copy of our organization’s official manual of sorts right at the front and center of the class. It has all requirements to promote, the full syllabus, and written instructions of everything standardized thing up to and I think including 4th dan. Everyone’s allowed to look at it whenever they want (except during class for obvious reasons). He and the other instructors open it up during class regularly when they’re unsure of something as well. Nothing secretive at all.

We’re supposed to be given copies of the syllabus (and other stuff) each time we promote, but my CI is pretty old school. Meaning everything is from typewriter days and somehow we’re always short on copies. I’ve been meaning to type everything up for him in Word documents and save them for him to clean them up and make things easier, but you know how that goes. A lot of the stuff has handwritten notes, stuff crossed out, underlined, etc.

I’m going to try to motivate myself to do it once the school year is over. I figure it’ll help me study stuff for my black belt test whenever that’ll be; I’m at 1st kyu currently.

 

[dvcochran]

Everyone should have a copy of the syllabus which should include all requirements for each rank and promoting to the next rank, or at least access to one.

Every time I’ve promoted, I’ve always asked my teacher what the requirements are for that rank and minimum time to the next rank. He’s never had a problem answering me. I told him every time “it’s the teacher in me. I need to know the curriculum.” He chuckles and says “everyone should know what’s expected of them and what they need to do to advance.”

We have a copy of our organization’s official manual of sorts right at the front and center of the class. It has all requirements to promote, the full syllabus, and written instructions of everything standardized thing up to and I think including 4th dan. Everyone’s allowed to look at it whenever they want (except during class for obvious reasons). He and the other instructors open it up during class regularly when they’re unsure of something as well. Nothing secretive at all.

We’re supposed to be given copies of the syllabus (and other stuff) each time we promote, but my CI is pretty old school. Meaning everything is from typewriter days and somehow we’re always short on copies. I’ve been meaning to type everything up for him in Word documents and save them for him to clean them up and make things easier, but you know how that goes. A lot of the stuff has handwritten notes, stuff crossed out, underlined, etc.

I’m going to try to motivate myself to do it once the school year is over. I figure it’ll help me study stuff for my black belt test whenever that’ll be; I’m at 1st kyu currently.

I like it. Just the way it should be done.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Everyone should have a copy of the syllabus which should include all requirements for each rank and promoting to the next rank, or at least access to one.

Every time I’ve promoted, I’ve always asked my teacher what the requirements are for that rank and minimum time to the next rank. He’s never had a problem answering me. I told him every time “it’s the teacher in me. I need to know the curriculum.” He chuckles and says “everyone should know what’s expected of them and what they need to do to advance.”

We have a copy of our organization’s official manual of sorts right at the front and center of the class. It has all requirements to promote, the full syllabus, and written instructions of everything standardized thing up to and I think including 4th dan. Everyone’s allowed to look at it whenever they want (except during class for obvious reasons). He and the other instructors open it up during class regularly when they’re unsure of something as well. Nothing secretive at all.

We’re supposed to be given copies of the syllabus (and other stuff) each time we promote, but my CI is pretty old school. Meaning everything is from typewriter days and somehow we’re always short on copies. I’ve been meaning to type everything up for him in Word documents and save them for him to clean them up and make things easier, but you know how that goes. A lot of the stuff has handwritten notes, stuff crossed out, underlined, etc.

I’m going to try to motivate myself to do it once the school year is over. I figure it’ll help me study stuff for my black belt test whenever that’ll be; I’m at 1st kyu currently.

I publish the basic guidelines (I might title them "requirements", but they're accompanied by a caveat that they are guidelines for the instructor, who can add and substitute as needed) in the student manual, which also contains basic history, some vocabulary, and etiquette. All told, it's about 20 pages, half-letter (slightly larger than half-folded A4, for folks across the pond). It doesn't contain detailed descriptions of the techniques, because I've not found a description - including my own - in writing that I'm happy with. But they at least know what the basic requirements are, though I consider it my responsibility to guide them through those. My approach is to get them what they need for promotion, then give them plenty of time to work on it (no new testable information for a few months). It's their responsibility to get it to the required level...a job which they (almost by definition) cannot reliably assess their progress on, since they don't know how to test someone for that level, so I help them know what they're doing well on and what they're falling behind on (compared to their progress in other areas).

 

[dvcochran]

I publish the basic guidelines (I might title them "requirements", but they're accompanied by a caveat that they are guidelines for the instructor, who can add and substitute as needed) in the student manual, which also contains basic history, some vocabulary, and etiquette. All told, it's about 20 pages, half-letter (slightly larger than half-folded A4, for folks across the pond). It doesn't contain detailed descriptions of the techniques, because I've not found a description - including my own - in writing that I'm happy with. But they at least know what the basic requirements are, though I consider it my responsibility to guide them through those. My approach is to get them what they need for promotion, then give them plenty of time to work on it (no new testable information for a few months). It's their responsibility to get it to the required level...a job which they (almost by definition) cannot reliably assess their progress on, since they don't know how to test someone for that level, so I help them know what they're doing well on and what they're falling behind on (compared to their progress in other areas).

Agree. The stated requirements should not be an end all/be all description or explanation of each technique. It would end up being one of those journals few people took the time to read and fewer who would understand what they read. If a student is able to name the required elements for the basis of discussion and dissemination with their instructor, that can really help the training process.

 

[JR 137]

I publish the basic guidelines (I might title them "requirements", but they're accompanied by a caveat that they are guidelines for the instructor, who can add and substitute as needed) in the student manual, which also contains basic history, some vocabulary, and etiquette. All told, it's about 20 pages, half-letter (slightly larger than half-folded A4, for folks across the pond). It doesn't contain detailed descriptions of the techniques, because I've not found a description - including my own - in writing that I'm happy with. But they at least know what the basic requirements are, though I consider it my responsibility to guide them through those. My approach is to get them what they need for promotion, then give them plenty of time to work on it (no new testable information for a few months). It's their responsibility to get it to the required level...a job which they (almost by definition) cannot reliably assess their progress on, since they don't know how to test someone for that level, so I help them know what they're doing well on and what they're falling behind on (compared to their progress in other areas).

Our syllabus is just a list with English and Japanese names. It’s broken down into hand techniques, kicks, kata list, etc. for each rank. And minimum time/class requirements for promotion to the next rank. Minimum time/classes varies for each rank. 10th-5th kyu are 3 months or so, 4th and 3rd are 6 months, 2nd is 9 months, and 1st kyu is 1 year. Not sure on exact numbers, but those seem about right to me.

I have no idea what the book at the front of the dojo is officially called; we call it “the black belt manual.” It’s broken down by each rank up to and including yondan. Each rank starts with the syllabus, then has each standardized thing written out step by step. Ie for kata it’ll tell you each count in English with the Japanese term for the move in parentheses. It sounds like it’ll be a huge binder-like thing, but it’s a softcover book about the size and thickness of a magazine. Just a quick reference manual. I’ve heard everyone gets one either from honbu or my teacher directly when they’re promoted to shodan.

My teacher used to give it to people earlier than shodan, but stopped because an interesting thing happened: people were using it to learn stuff rather than as reference as it was intended. He’d go to teach someone something like a new kata right after promotion and they were pretty much doing the whole thing without being taught. How does a kata you taught yourself to do from a book without pictures look? Pretty awful. He got tired of it.

Worse things happened with videos. My former organization and current one used to have videos of everything for each rank. Great idea, until people were learning from them and telling the teachers they were wrong. The best one was a guy telling the head of my former organization that he was wrong during a promotional test. He said to our head guy “the guy in the video said to do it like this.” Our head guy did all he could do to not strangle the student and said “do you know who the guy in the video is?” and walked away. That was the final straw - the unsold videos just went away. The student had no clue that the head guy was the guy in the video. Similar stuff happened in my current organization.