articles in WCI magazine...

[drop bear]

@LFJ beat me to some of the videos, especially the Jones one. Here is another.

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Now you see what it can do from the front in terms of hyperextension. The thing is the knee is designed to take an amount of stress in the direction and it can still mess you up. Now apply that same force from the side, which the knee is not designed to deal with. It works definitely when used properly, why? Biomechanics. All of our joints are designed to only bend one way or another.

What I especially loved in the video I linked was that even in the face of "no one uses WC techniques in MMA what did the one fight commentator say "that's a Wing Chun technique."

If those kicks work in competition then they dont work on the street. Because of rules.


Kicks to the knee work. The knee exploding not so much.

 

[drop bear]

They actually are crippling fight enders when applied correctly. One day at work I was trying to kick to the common peroneal and hit the knee instead. I had to write my UoF memo in A LOT more detail than usual because the suspect required surgery. Even when it isn't that catastrophic it can easily make the opponent less effective in combat because you undermine their foundation, even if the long term result is simply ice, Aleve and bed rest.

I have been messed up by a round kick to my knee. I have not been messed up by the thousand other round kicks to my knee.

I am going to work on the theory that a knee kick probably won't end a fight regardless how correctly applied.

Anyone who is claiming they can reliably smash a knee with a kick had better have smashed more than one knee.

 

[Martial D]

Well, I'm getting dizzy. I'm too old for this many laps on the merry go round.

Long fist WC huh? So you throw out center line principle, the biomechanics, the entire approach of phone booth chi sau sensitivity and trapping and attack with your body on the >45 degree angle necessary to get long range, boxing style arm extension?

That would put your center somewhere to his right or left(depending on orth/southpaw) which destructuralizes everything(now your tan saus/bong saus/fook said are easily collapsed..etc.

If you say so I guess.

 

[Danny T]

Genuine question. I have read many times that WC is a "system" not a group of techniques. If Jon Jones doesn't train WC, can this actually be viewed as validating WC, even if the technique is familiar? (I hope that makes sense).

Have the same kick in the Kali system I train and teach. What would that do the same for Kali.

 

[drop bear]

Genuine question. I have read many times that WC is a "system" not a group of techniques. If Jon Jones doesn't train WC, can this actually be viewed as validating WC, even if the technique is familiar? (I hope that makes sense).

MMA does wing chun better?

 

[Steve]

Have the same kick in the Kali system I train and teach. What would that do the same for Kali.

i don't think I understand what you're asking.

 

[Steve]

MMA does wing chun better?

Lol. I don't think so. We all know that wc doesn't work in Mma, ergo if wc works in Mma, It isn't wc. That's logic. Infallible, rock solid, logic.

 

[drop bear]

Lol. I don't think so. We all know that wc doesn't work in Mma, ergo if wc works in Mma, It isn't wc. That's logic. Infallible, rock solid, logic.

All roads lead to IP Man.

I met him once nice guy. He told me the secret to wing chun. But I was on Facebook so I wasn't really paying attention.

 

[LFJ]

Punching them in the face much easier!

You think you can punch this guy in the face pretty easily, huh?

I think you'd have a hard time, but his knee could be kicked at almost any point in there, because boxers don't need to be concerned about such dangers in the sport. So, he leaves his lead leg there without much movement while focusing on upper body evasion.

You should actually train knee kicks and try it out against boxers before you say what is much easier to do.

 

[LFJ]

Well, as the conversation started as a question about this phantom long range wc, and you showed me that, what other conclusion am I left with? It seems strange to use something as a tool to keep someone at range when you don't have anything but that at range.

How about you actually read the post, and watch the video? That is not the only weapon at long-range.

Long fist WC huh? So you throw out center line principle, the biomechanics,

Not at all.

the entire approach of phone booth chi sau sensitivity and trapping

No such thing in VT to begin with.

and attack with your body on the >45 degree angle necessary to get long range, boxing style arm extension?

There's no need to overextend at long-range.

That would put your center somewhere to his right or left(depending on orth/southpaw) which destructuralizes everything(now your tan saus/bong saus/fook said are easily collapsed..etc.

No. Taan-sau and fuk-sau aren't fighting techniques in VT, and bong-sau isn't something to hold pressure.

If you aren't familiar with VT, only incorrect conclusions can come from these assumptions.

 

[LFJ]

If those kicks work in competition then they dont work on the street. Because of rules.

What? Rules are not what make knee kicks work.

Anyone who is claiming they can reliably smash a knee with a kick had better have smashed more than one knee.

I have smashed more than one knee.

 

[KPM]

according to the OP. @KPM has acknowledged that the WC I study, "Traditional Wing Chun" has a long range game.

----Uh no. Like LJF, you obviously haven't been following what I've been writing over...what...3 threads now? I said TWC has better long range abilities that any other system of Wing Chun I've seen, and that some of what I was saying didn't apply to TWC. I did not say that TWC has a "long range game" that is the equivalent of boxing and others. It comes the closest, but still has plenty of room for improvement and further development. And for that reason, TWC is the base Wing Chun version I am using in my "Wing Chun Boxing" project.

He has even called it "long fist" WC.

---No. I called it "long arm" WC. I've also seen it called "long bridge" WC. This reflects the fact that some of the arm techniques tend to be more extended than other WC and are used more from the middle range.


that WSLVT, he studies under the Philipp Bayer line and I under the Gary Lam, also has a long range game.

---Then please show a video of this "long range" Wing Chun. And I will repeat...for probably the 10th time now, that having a viable "long range strategy" is NOT the same thing has having a fully developed "long range game."


@LFJ even showed a video of it.

---So you really think Sean's video clip of MMA training, with obvious grappling elements and obvious boxing elements represents and demonstrates a full and "pure" Wing Chun "long range game" ??? You can honestly look at Sean's student ducking and bobbing forward and then hopping to the side and not see an obvious boxing influence? You can look at the clip of Sean's students doing a classic boxing "high cover" and say with LFJ that it was "pure" WSLVT???

Some have a long range game and others do not. Some have chin na/grappling, others do not.

---Please share with us a video clip of ANY Wing Chun lineage fighting entirely from long range.

 

[LFJ]

@LFJ even showed a video of it.

---So you really think Sean's video clip of MMA training, with obvious grappling elements and obvious boxing elements represents and demonstrates a full and "pure" Wing Chun "long range game" ???

You keep pointing to irrelevant clips in the video to invalidate the relevant part. Why?

This is a dishonest tactic.

You can honestly look at Sean's student ducking and bobbing forward and then hopping to the side and not see an obvious boxing influence?

It's natural instinct even for the untrained, and not precluded from VT, nor learned from boxing.

You can look at the clip of Sean's students doing a classic boxing "high cover" and say with LFJ that it was "pure" WSLVT???

It's a Biu-ji tactic in the form, simply used as a standard defense because of its usefulness against other styles.

---Please share with us a video clip of ANY Wing Chun lineage fighting entirely from long range.

I did, but it's invalid because other irrelevant clips in the video show grappling.

 

[KPM]

You keep pointing to irrelevant clips in the video to invalidate the relevant part. Why? This is a dishonest tactic.

---And you keep pointing to an MMA sparring clip saying it represents "pure" WSLVT. You want to pick and choose the short segments that you feel support your point and ignore the rest. That seems like a very dishonest tactic to me!

---Just admit it. That one clip is all you have to try and represent a WSLVT "long range game." And that clip is inconclusive and poor evidence because it is a clip of MMA training where things from outside of WSLVT have been added in. So you just want everyone to take your word for it that the elements that look so much like western boxing actually come from your WSLVT Biu Gee form and have been part of WSLVT all along. Sorry. That is even close to being proof of anything. That is an MMA clip and there is nothing to show that those boxing-like elements didn't come from an actual boxing influence.



It's a Biu-ji tactic in the form, simply used as a standard defense because of its usefulness against other styles.

---And I've asked before and you failed to answer....where is this in the Biu Gee form?

 

[LFJ]

---And you keep pointing to an MMA sparring clip saying it represents "pure" WSLVT. You want to pick and choose the short segments that you feel support your point and ignore the rest. That seems like a very dishonest tactic to me!

It's not. What I pointed to is pure WSLVT long-range fighting. Like it or not.

that clip is inconclusive and poor evidence because it is a clip of MMA training where things from outside of WSLVT have been added in.

If the long-range striking clip were uploaded alone, it would show nothing but pure VT, and you couldn't use the dishonest tactic of pointing to irrelevant clips showing grappling. That is your only way to complain about it.

So you just want everyone to take your word for it that the elements that look so much like western boxing actually come from your WSLVT Biu Gee form and have been part of WSLVT all along.

It is entirely unlike boxing, and is right there in the form. Truth doesn't require your belief in it.

That is an MMA clip and there is nothing to show that those boxing-like elements didn't come from an actual boxing influence.

It's just like looking at an oblique kick in VT sparring and saying it's not VT because other styles do something similar.

That's just ignorant.

It's a Biu-ji tactic in the form, simply used as a standard defense because of its usefulness against other styles.

---And I've asked before and you failed to answer....where is this in the Biu Gee form?

No. You failed to read the answer that I gave you at least two or three times. It's at the end.

 

[Juany118]

according to the OP. @KPM has acknowledged that the WC I study, "Traditional Wing Chun" has a long range game.

----Uh no. Like LJF, you obviously haven't been following what I've been writing over...what...3 threads now? I said TWC has better long range abilities that any other system of Wing Chun I've seen, and that some of what I was saying didn't apply to TWC. I did not say that TWC has a "long range game" that is the equivalent of boxing and others. It comes the closest, but still has plenty of room for improvement and further development. And for that reason, TWC is the base Wing Chun version I am using in my "Wing Chun Boxing" project.

He has even called it "long fist" WC.

---No. I called it "long arm" WC. I've also seen it called "long bridge" WC. This reflects the fact that some of the arm techniques tend to be more extended than other WC and are used more from the middle range.


that WSLVT, he studies under the Philipp Bayer line and I under the Gary Lam, also has a long range game.

---Then please show a video of this "long range" Wing Chun. And I will repeat...for probably the 10th time now, that having a viable "long range strategy" is NOT the same thing has having a fully developed "long range game."


@LFJ even showed a video of it.

---So you really think Sean's video clip of MMA training, with obvious grappling elements and obvious boxing elements represents and demonstrates a full and "pure" Wing Chun "long range game" ??? You can honestly look at Sean's student ducking and bobbing forward and then hopping to the side and not see an obvious boxing influence? You can look at the clip of Sean's students doing a classic boxing "high cover" and say with LFJ that it was "pure" WSLVT???

Some have a long range game and others do not. Some have chin na/grappling, others do not.

---Please share with us a video clip of ANY Wing Chun lineage fighting entirely from long range.

Long fist, long arm, long bridge. That is a semantics game, not one of substance.

I have shown a video. How many kicks does Sifu Jerry use in the MUSU fight I have posted, kicks are part of a TCMA long game.

You have yet to show how boxing demonstrably improves in the long game of TWC.

You know the history of @LFJ and I, yet I can look at his video and say "that is WSLVT" in his video in terms of long game and say that the take down, while not WSLVT via PB (it's there is Gary Lam's though) is irrelevant.

So we have videos already posted. You even posted a video of GM Cheung using WC against a boxer. If you feel the WC you study and teach needs a gap filler that is fine, I don't study yours so I won't say you are wrong but you are saying other Lineages also need such an addition and it's seems clear what applies to one lineage doesn't apply to all.

 

[LFJ]

If you feel the WC you study and teach needs a gap filler that is fine, I don't study yours so I won't say you are wrong but you are saying other Lineages also need such an addition and it's seems clear what applies to one lineage doesn't apply to all.

Clearly an ego problem.

He doesn't want to be the only one admitting gaps in fundamentals, so he will use dishonest tactics to invalidate the demonstrated long-range game of VT.

Especially since I have been saying most YM derivatives are full of gaps, and he hates that, he would never acknowledge WSLVT has a long-range game.

That video was a compilation of things. Training, drilling, and various sparring bouts, and not even all on the same day.

The bout I pointed to showed the VT fighter using nothing but VT long-range game.
But, since the video had some separate grappling clips, he jumps on that to disqualify the whole thing.

Obvious ego-driven dishonesty.

 

[KPM]

Long fist, long arm, long bridge. That is a semantics game, not one of substance.

---I defined the terms. It certainly does have substance.

I have shown a video. How many kicks does Sifu Jerry use in the MUSU fight I have posted, kicks are part of a TCMA long game.

---So you showed a clip of a TWC fighter kicking. And you think that is an example of the entire "long range game" and an example of conducting the entire fight from long range, equivalent to what a boxer could do??? Kicking can indeed be an important element of a "long range game." But just because someone is kicking doesn't mean they have a "long range game" that goes beyond just a "long range strategy." The clips I showed of Wing Chun guys just stepping in and starting punching had kicks as well.

You have yet to show how boxing demonstrably improves in the long game of TWC.

----I proposed it as a possibility. And not even a necessity! And yet people have gotten all butt-hurt at the suggestion that there might be room for improvement in their Wing Chun!!!


You know the history of @LFJ and I, yet I can look at his video and say "that is WSLVT" in his video in terms of long game and say that the take down, while not WSLVT via PB (it's there is Gary Lam's though) is irrelevant.

----So you are so caught up in justifying your current beliefs, that you are willing to look at an MMA training video that shows both obvious grappling elements and obvious boxing elements, and then take LFJ's word that the boxing element has been part of WSLVT all along? Really?? I have to say I'm a bit disappointed you in. I thought you were more open-minded about things like this.

So we have videos already posted. You even posted a video of GM Cheung using WC against a boxer.

---Sure. And he wasn't doing much from long range!!!! And neither was the boxer at the time.

If you feel the WC you study and teach needs a gap filler that is fine, I don't study yours so I won't say you are wrong but you are saying other Lineages also need such an addition and it's seems clear what applies to one lineage doesn't apply to all.

----So now you are even picking up on LJF's derogatory term???? I've said multiple times now that some people may be perfectly happy with the long range strategy that goes along with their Wing Chun. And that's Ok! I've also said that it is not the equivalent of what other systems that were actually designed to work from long range can do. That's just common sense. So logically speaking, a Wing Chun guy can improve their abilities at long range by looking to one of those systems. You can call that "gap filling" if you want. I just call it "cross training" or "common sense" But its just amazing at the number of people that have gotten all offended by my suggestion! And yet I'm the one accused of being "ego driven"???

 

[KPM]

No. You failed to read the answer that I gave you at least two or three times. It's at the end.

Yep. Pretty typical of you. You are asked "where are these long range methods found in the Biu Gee form?" Your answer? "At the end." That's sure a detailed answer that explains everything! Geez!

 

[LFJ]

----So you are so caught up in justifying your current beliefs, that you are willing to look at an MMA training video that shows both obvious grappling elements and obvious boxing elements, and then take LFJ's word that the boxing element has been part of WSLVT all along? Really?? I have to say I'm a bit disappointed you in. I thought you were more open-minded about things like this.

In other words,

"I'm a bit disappointed you in [sic]. I thought you were on my side and would back me in disqualifying a particular sparring bout based on unrelated clips that also happen to be in the same compilation".

I've also said that it is not the equivalent of what other systems that were actually designed to work from long range can do.

VT can do whatever you required of it, unless your definition of "long-range game" requires overextending punches or spinning kicks. But, these are not necessary in order to conduct and end a fight from long range.

But its just amazing at the number of people that have gotten all offended by my suggestion!

No one is offended by your suggestion. We are just pointing out that it applies only to your incomplete knowledge of WC and the incomplete WC you have knowledge of.

You are asked "where are these long range methods found in the Biu Gee form?" Your answer? "At the end." That's sure a detailed answer that explains everything! Geez!

Have you not learned the form?

Explains why you're confused a lot, if you haven't completed even a broken system of Wing Chun.