Anti-Grappling Techniques...

[drop bear]

Wait, not grappling with a grappler is a terrible idea?

You suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience should grapple with a grappler? That makes a lot of sense.

Believe it or not it is possible to defend being taken down. And while doing so if you give me a chance to thumb you in the eye with a jab...I will.

There is a whole bunch of interesting ideas regarding grappling and anti grappling.

You wouldn't shoot on a grappler. You wouldn't hang around in guard unless you are bashing the guy.

You would learn grappling defences. You would learn escapes from the ground.

The question is how you go about it. You don't really need the full BJJ syllabus to supplement your striking to make it a bit difficult for a grappler to take you down and hold you down. Especially not at a casual level. But the defences you do need to know you need to know them well.

And that is the tricky part. Because it is kind of hard to find a quality grappler without actually having to spend the time learning grappling.

This is why I keep advocating wrestling over BJJ they start with a bit less system that is a bit more aplicable in a striking context.

 

[Charlemagne]

This is why I keep advocating wrestling over BJJ they start with a bit less system that is a bit more aplicable in a striking context.

Can you clarify this? Certainly many, if not most, BJJ schools these days ignore striking all together, but classically this is not the case, and there are still many of the more traditional schools still teach it, including on the ground. However, I haven't seen anything in wrestling (unless it is Catch) where striking is considered at all. I'm curious to hear where that idea is coming from.

Cheers!

 

[drop bear]

Can you clarify this? Certainly many, if not most, BJJ schools these days ignore striking all together, but classically this is not the case, and there are still many of the more traditional schools still teach it, including on the ground. However, I haven't seen anything in wrestling (unless it is Catch) where striking is considered at all. I'm curious to hear where that idea is coming from.

Cheers!

It is positionally better for striking. To start with more focus on takedowns. If you want to stop a fighter you want him to be on his back. Eg. Brock Lesnar Mark Hunt. So you need to work on the tools that take him there.

There is more focus on top side control. For a striker you want to be on top.You can't effectively strike from the bottom.

There is more focus on standing back up and escaping. Because you don't want to be rolling around with a submissions guy.

And these techniques pretty much occure when you start. Double leg, single leg, top side control, stand up escapes. So you learn the most important stuff off the bat.

BJJ the first thing you do is sit on your but and learn submissions.

As a striker. You want to be this slippery hard to pin down guy.

 

[Charlemagne]

BJJ the first thing you do is sit on your but and learn submissions.

Depends on where you train, but yeah, that is pretty common in the sport schools.

 

[Hanzou]

Depends on where you train, but yeah, that is pretty common in the sport schools.

Yeah, Gracie JJ schools tend to be more self-defense/MMA based than a lot of sport Bjj schools. Learning how to defend against striking while in position is pretty important.

EDIT: Nevermind, just re-read DB's post.

Yeah, can't really advocate wrestling over Bjj for several reasons. Mainly that many Bjj schools incorporate wrestling and Judo these days, and wrestling still isn't incorporating submissions.

Not very helpful if you're a smaller guy or a woman either. Yeah, you can take people down (probably), but once you got them down, very little is going to keep them there if they're a lot bigger than you are.

 

[jobo]

Au contraíre, they are all highly skilled wrestlers. They're also quite good at punching.

Jon Jones was a state champion wrestler in high school and regularly uses his wrestling skills in MMA to take down opponents and beat them up or submit them.

Demetrius Johnson also wrestled in high school, placing 2nd and 3rd in state championships. He also has made good use of his grappling skills in MMA, taking down and submitting multiple opponents in high level competition.

Georges St. Pierre didn't start wrestling until his late teens, but his wrestling and his Jiu-jitsu have been instrumental to his success as an MMA champion. His ability to take opponents down with a double-leg and keep them down has won him many fights.

If you want I can post pictures of fighters who were national or world champions at wrestling before getting into the fight game, but that's not going to help your case any.

so they used to be wrestlers, I used to have hair. If they are punching they are not wrestling

 

[Tony Dismukes]

so they used to be wrestlers, I used to have hair. If they are punching they are not wrestling

Wrong again. It would make just as much sense to say that if they are punching they are not wrestling. They can do both. Punching makes the wrestling work better. Wrestling makes the punches work better.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Pretty much every technique, in Kenpo, is anti-grappling; however, you were supposed to also know grappling.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, Gracie JJ schools tend to be more self-defense/MMA based than a lot of sport Bjj schools. Learning how to defend against striking while in position is pretty important.

EDIT: Nevermind, just re-read DB's post.

Yeah, can't really advocate wrestling over Bjj for several reasons. Mainly that many Bjj schools incorporate wrestling and Judo these days, and wrestling still isn't incorporating submissions.

Not very helpful if you're a smaller guy or a woman either. Yeah, you can take people down (probably), but once you got them down, very little is going to keep them there if they're a lot bigger than you are.

For a suplimental to striking you wouldn't incorparate submissions. It is hard to be any good at submissions unless you are willing to put the time in. Much easier to hit people.

Hitting people makes it easier to get submissions as well.

Yes submission skills are important skills to learn. But then you have to do a whole dedicated system to learn them. Or you are just going to be outclassed all the time.

A lot of what we do is stopping halfway through the submission process. So for example a very effective guard pass is elbows.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened? Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.

1. Become an expert at avoiding takedowns
2. Become an expert at escaping takedowns
3. Become an expert at countering takedowns.
4. Become an expert at understanding what makes a takedown work.

Find a BJJ partner and ask him or her to try to take you down. Find a BJJ partner and try to escape once you hit the ground. Don't start from the ground, but allow the takedown to be successful and work it from there. Sometimes the way you fall gives you an advantage of using specific escapes or counters. Be sure to learn how to take others down when they are trying to take you down. The longer you stay on the ground with someone who does BJJ the more you'll need need some solid grappling skills because they are dragging you into their sandbox and if they get you there, you will lose.

It's almost saying I want to learn how to deal with a punch after it hits me in the face. You want to do your best to address a punch before it lands solid. Your statement "Beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" means you are already in a no win situation. Don't try to out grapple a grappler.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You will also need to deal with "body slam" as well.

 

[PhotonGuy]

What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?

Learn to grapple yourself. I would say that's the most effective method to deal with a situation. That's why I've taken up Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

As for the specifics, that would depend on the situation. A main factor would be what position you and your opponent are in when the takedown occurs and so forth. To understand that I will go back to what I said above, learn to grapple.

 

[jobo]

Understand that one of the attributes of a good grappler is speed, another is accuracy. I don't know about other arts, but in the Hapkido I learned, we have many defenses against hand and feet attacks. If a punch or kick is trapped, blocked, or re-directed, chances are that attacking arm or leg is going to be joint locked in a damaging way, and the rest of your body is going to be turned in a way you can't do any damage. Don't expect an opposing Hapkido practitioner, or any other grappling art to stand there and let you do as you will. Same with grabbing an adam's apple. Even if you do it to occlude the carotids, you victim will still have 2 - 3 seconds to defend.



I don't know what grappling you may have done, but from your answers, if you should have to engage in a sparring contest or a real fight, I would suggest you ask your opponent if they are an experienced grappler. If they should deign to tell you they are (they may not), my suggestion would be to immediately disengage and run, not as fast as you can, but as fast as you have to.

I think you are suffering from being over confident in you art. I have mentioned before that while I understand one being happy with their own art, unquestionably being over confident is likely to leave you unhappy and not understanding what happened.

All arts and practitioners have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't know what your art's strengths and weaknesses are, and what your opponent's art's strengths and weaknesses are, you may get a nasty surprise.

As to wrestlers, how do you categorize talented wrestlers who aren't fat, and can punch as well as wrestle?

I'm not over confident in my art, in fact I'm not that confident to be honest, a lot of it is counter intuitive to me and i would probably drop it in a real fight and go back to what I know works.

I'm am how ever confident in my own abilities. I'm big and fast and strong. If I hit people they fall over, I've done it many times over the years.
however if I was to fight an expert then I would lose, that's true if it we're boxing expert or a karate expert or a wrestling expert. That's because I'm not an expert. The thread was how to deal with grapplers, not how to fight an interstate champion or a ufc fighter or what ever people have migrated to.

allowing some equality in physical and skill abilities. Then wrestlers' don't have the advantage that people here suggest. If it we're so, no one would have bothered developing striking arts and only wrestling would exist

 

[jobo]

Wrong again. It would make just as much sense to say that if they are punching they are not wrestling. They can do both. Punching makes the wrestling work better. Wrestling makes the punches work better.

again, I haven't been wrong yet, if they are fighting in ufc, they are ufc fighters not wrestlers', they have even written it on their gloves so the hard of thinking can pick it up.
which is another clue, punching is not allowed in wrestling, so they don't wear gloves

 

[Hanzou]

For a suplimental to striking you wouldn't incorparate submissions. It is hard to be any good at submissions unless you are willing to put the time in. Much easier to hit people.

Hitting people makes it easier to get submissions as well.

Yes submission skills are important skills to learn. But then you have to do a whole dedicated system to learn them. Or you are just going to be outclassed all the time.

A lot of what we do is stopping halfway through the submission process. So for example a very effective guard pass is elbows.

Okay, but you're not going to learn how to pass guard with elbows in wrestling.

For Bjj, the best takeaway from wrestling is takedowns, set ups, and top pressure and a lot of Bjj schools incorporate wrestling into their curriculum.

 

[oftheherd1]

I'm not over confident in my art, in fact I'm not that confident to be honest, a lot of it is counter intuitive to me and i would probably drop it in a real fight and go back to what I know works.

I'm am how ever confident in my own abilities. I'm big and fast and strong. If I hit people they fall over, I've done it many times over the years.
however if I was to fight an expert then I would lose, that's true if it we're boxing expert or a karate expert or a wrestling expert. That's because I'm not an expert. The thread was how to deal with grapplers, not how to fight an interstate champion or a ufc fighter or what ever people have migrated to.

allowing some equality in physical and skill abilities. Then wrestlers' don't have the advantage that people here suggest. If it we're so, no one would have bothered developing striking arts and only wrestling would exist

What advantage do you see studying an art when "... a lot of it is counter intuitive...?" Is it the only MA taught where you are, or are you too new to it to see how to make what seems counter-intuitive work after all? That is sometimes true.

Anyway, good for you to make people fall when you hit them. What happens if they know techniques that prevents you from hitting them?

As far as what the thread was about, I think I have answered mostly as a student of a grappling art. Threads do often drift, but I think this one has stayed remarkably on topic, compared to many. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm am how ever confident in my own abilities. I'm big and fast and strong. If I hit people they fall over, I've done it many times over the years.

allowing some equality in physical and skill abilities

In that case your opponent will also be big and fast and strong, so you can't rely on those physical attributes to give you the edge. Thus the discussion of technique.

Then wrestlers' don't have the advantage that people here suggest. If it we're so, no one would have bothered developing striking arts and only wrestling would exist

The original question was how to deal with a skilled grappler after you have already been taken down. Asking how to do that without grappling skills of your own is a bit like asking how to deal with a boxer when you have both your hands tied behind your back. Not saying it's impossible, but you're dealing with a sizable disadvantage.

however if I was to fight an expert then I would lose, that's true if it we're boxing expert or a karate expert or a wrestling expert. That's because I'm not an expert. The thread was how to deal with grapplers, not how to fight an interstate champion or a ufc fighter or what ever people have migrated to.

The original question stated "I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers". That doesn't mean a UFC champion, but it does indicate an expert,

again, I haven't been wrong yet, if they are fighting in ufc, they are ufc fighters not wrestlers', they have even written it on their gloves so the hard of thinking can pick it up.
which is another clue, punching is not allowed in wrestling, so they don't wear gloves

False dichotomy. Someone can be a wrestler and also a UFC fighter. Just like someone can be a karateka and a UFC fighter or a boxer and a UFC fighter. Some people are all of the above. When a wrestler fights in the UFC, he uses his wrestling skills along with whatever he other skills he possesses to beat his opponent.

This is directly relevant to the original question. The OP asked how to defend against a skilled grappler in a real fight, not in a wrestling tournament. Your original answer - " hit them, kick them elbow them and knee them, don't grapple with them once they realise that trying to grab your legs or arm is a very painful experience they will stop it" - was based on this context. Hitting, kicking, elbowing, kneeing are not allowed in a wrestling tournament, so clearly you are considering a violent encounter with a grappler in a non-tournament setting which means they are capable of hitting, kicking, elbowing, and kneeing as well. If they get on top of you, they can do it that much more effectively.

BTW - the original question was dealing with skilled grapplers in general, not just wrestlers. I just found your comment "wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch" particularly amusing because wrestlers tend to be some of the fittest athletes in the world with very low body fat (unless you count sumo wrestlers, who are kind of in their own separate category).

(On the question of "can't punch", I can't speak for the average wrestler. I can say that a quick survey of my fellow BJJ black belts that I know personally shows that probably around 70% of them are at least black belt or black belt equivalent in some striking art as well. I don't know how representative that is of the community as a whole, but I also note that 100% of the BJJ black belts I know of on this forum also hold instructor rank in some striking art.)

 

[jobo]

What advantage do you see studying an art when "... a lot of it is counter intuitive...?" Is it the only MA taught where you are, or are you too new to it to see how to make what seems counter-intuitive work after all? That is sometimes true.

Anyway, good for you to make people fall when you hit them. What happens if they know techniques that prevents you from hitting them?

As far as what the thread was about, I think I have answered mostly as a student of a grappling art. Threads do often drift, but I think this one has stayed remarkably on topic, compared to many. Just my opinion of course.

its very big on practical karate,ie teaching people who cant fight how to defend themselves, I have no need for this as I can already defend myself and i wouldn't do it the way we are shown,. I'm long limbed I kick and punch from range,

if I meet someone with considerably greater skill than myself, have probably lost, but that's true for everybody, its a numbers game, the chances of me being mugged by a hapkidio expert are low to never going to happen

 

[Tez3]

I have no need for this as I can already defend myself and i wouldn't do it the way we are shown,.

So, who do you train with and do they know you think you know everything and they don't know anything?

 

[jobo]

In that case your opponent will also be big and fast and strong, so you can't rely on those physical attributes to give you the edge. Thus the discussion of technique.



The original question was how to deal with a skilled grappler after you have already been taken down. Asking how to do that without grappling skills of your own is a bit like asking how to deal with a boxer when you have both your hands tied behind your back. Not saying it's impossible, but you're dealing with a sizable disadvantage.



The original question stated "I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers". That doesn't mean a UFC champion, but it does indicate an expert,



False dichotomy. Someone can be a wrestler and also a UFC fighter. Just like someone can be a karateka and a UFC fighter or a boxer and a UFC fighter. Some people are all of the above. When a wrestler fights in the UFC, he uses his wrestling skills along with whatever he other skills he possesses to beat his opponent.

This is directly relevant to the original question. The OP asked how to defend against a skilled grappler in a real fight, not in a wrestling tournament. Your original answer - " hit them, kick them elbow them and knee them, don't grapple with them once they realise that trying to grab your legs or arm is a very painful experience they will stop it" - was based on this context. Hitting, kicking, elbowing, kneeing are not allowed in a wrestling tournament, so clearly you are considering a violent encounter with a grappler in a non-tournament setting which means they are capable of hitting, kicking, elbowing, and kneeing as well. If they get on top of you, they can do it that much more effectively.

BTW - the original question was dealing with skilled grapplers in general, not just wrestlers. I just found your comment "wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch" particularly amusing because wrestlers tend to be some of the fittest athletes in the world with very low body fat (unless you count sumo wrestlers, who are kind of in their own separate category).

(On the question of "can't punch", I can't speak for the average wrestler. I can say that a quick survey of my fellow BJJ black belts that I know personally shows that probably around 70% of them are at least black belt or black belt equivalent in some striking art as well. I don't know how representative that is of the community as a whole, but I also note that 100% of the BJJ black belts I know of on this forum also hold instructor rank in some striking art.)

you've joined the list of people on here who just start making up facts,,,, the op asked about dealing with,a grappler not a skilled grappler,. Just an ordinary grappler.

I'm pretty sure he didn't have ufc professional's in mind when he asked his question

on the other point, if a wrestler is throwing punches, he is no longer wrestling. Thats a simple statement of fact