An instructor who has never fought?

[geezer]

I was talking with some friends and one guy pointed out that none of us had been in an actual fight since our teens or early twenties. And, if you are a middle class guy with a profession outside of the military, law enforcement, or security, you are not likely to get involved in fights. In fact if you do, you will probably be fired (if its on the job), arrested, and possibly face charges or get sued! Of course there's always the possible self-defense scenario, but unless you hang out at rough bars and walk back alleys at night, most people can avoid getting into situations where they have to physically defend themselves.

So my point is that a person may dedicate themselves to the martial arts, gain great skill, and become an instructor without ever having actually fought anybody. Sure, they may spar with heavy contact and compete... but never test their skills on the street. So would you train under such a person? Or must a true martial arts instructor have real, down and dirty street fighting experience?

 

[JWLuiza]

I'm pretty sure I have trained under people who have never had a "street fight". Maybe that means I suck. Or maybe I just suck

 

[Joab]

I've worked in security for over 15 years including being a bouncer in a tavern and have never gotten into a fight while working security nor been involved in a self defense situation while on the job. My experience has been that you can end most conflicts non violently if you know how to talk to people. Being big helps as well.

In response to your question, it certainly lends more credibility if you have actual experience defending yourself. Than again, someone who has managed to avoid violence is someone to listen to, learning how to defuse situations to avoid fights. I've lost count of the number of tense situations I have been in that likely would have exploded into violence if I had approached it differently. And certainly the confidence that I know what to do if attacked has helped me defuse a whole lot of potential fights.

 

[Jade Tigress]

I have no problem with training under an instructor who has never been in a down and dirty street fight. After all, isn't part of martial arts training avoiding things like that? Skills and effectiveness can be proven under controlled circumstances, IMO.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have no problem training under an instructor that does not have a street fight history. But here is something to consider in CMA; many of the old traditional guys won't tell you if they were in a fight or not.

My Sifu always says he was never in a fight but then he tells me about Tung Hu Ling who was in many fights in his school in Thailand due to multiple challenges and my Sifu helped teach there so I am not sure what he has really done and to be honest I don't much care. He is very good at what he teaches, but he does from time to time let slip a few tuishou "matches" he had... but that, to him, is not fighting. But he has no problem throwing me around like a rag doll and I am much larger and much younger than he is. And as far as I know my Sanda sifu has never been in a fight either, but he can kick my butt and I was in fights (to many) in my previous life as a security person in a hospital with a mental health and detox unit.

But then I would think that if your goal was to train something like Muay Thai, Boxing, Sports Sanshou, or any other of the MAs used for sports competitions you would at least want some one as a teacher that has at least a little experience in the ring or on the mat.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Really depends on how the school is promoting itself. If they master is claiming to be a great street fighter and making a big point out of telling people that his techniques are designed for the mythical street, yes, I would say that he or she had better have some real world experience with those techniques, possibly requiring him or her to produce their arrest record to prove it.

And that brings us to the other issue. How do you know if the guy has any "street experience", and "I just know" is not a reliable method. Regarding the "street" people can claim anything they darned well please, as there is no legitimate way to really prove or disprove it.

"I was on my way to my car on a dark and stormy night when I was approached by a knife wielding thug. I trapped his hand and made him stab himself in the crotch before he knew what hit him. I sure didn't want to deal with the police, so I got in my car and drove away. Never did find out what happened to that guy, but I sure bet he felt that in the morning... if he survived."

Now how do I go about verifying that?? No witnesses. The story specifically tells you why the police were not involved, so there is no police report. But Super Soke Sensei Rex can tell you such a story when you ask if his techniques work.

For some reason, when discussing 'street fights' people tend to tell fish stories. Being in the business of teaching people to fight will exert greater pressure on them to do so. Gotta develop that mystique with the students.

Realistically, we learn a martial art to provide us with tools to use in a given environment. While a karate instructor may not be a street fighter, the weapons of choice, punches and kicks, are all proven weapons in an unarmed fight. Martial arts are no guarantee of victory in a violent encounter. They do help the student to develop a tool set that can be used for 'just such an emergency.'

So long as the school is not proclaiming itself to be the royal throne of teh d3@dly str33t bad-assery or claiming that they will equip you to take on a horde of terrorists single handedly, tournament fights and heavy sparring will suffice. I can verify a tournament record and gain a general idea of an instructor's capabilities watching him or her spar.

Daniel

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have had instructors on both sides and learned some thing from all of them. I think in life if you look at any activity then experience helps. However, is it the right kind of experience or the wrong kind of experience. That is a serious question!

 

[MattJ]

As long as the instructor can kick my a$$, I can learn. LOL

 

[wushuguy]

Having experience doesn't hurt, but it doesn't make it a must.

One with some experience will be able to know the difference between real and practical techniques vs stylistic movie moves. However, if that sifu studied traditionally with one who had real experience, then his sigung will have taught him accordingly, so even if the sifu didn't have "real" experience, the way he was taught would reveal that knowledge and experience that was passed down to him. This kind of indirect knowledge can be very very good.

What is more important in my opinion, is that the instructor can help develop the students into the best they can reach. that student may or may not have a fight. but what is important is that the student becomes capable.

However, if your teacher, teacher's teacher, and teacher's teacher's teacher, all don't have any real experience, then the instruction becomes a little suspect.

 

[terryl965]

It is all about you believing you are learning actual SD or just some random techs that are worthless to anybody. It is not a concern if they have or not, mainly it has never came up with any of the people I have trained with.

 

[Ken Morgan]

As one who trains in the swords arts, outside of some "nasty" **** during the second war, no one has really had a "real" sword fight in many, many years.

All of it doesn't influence me in a positive or negative way all at.

I just train.

 

[chrispillertkd]

So my point is that a person may dedicate themselves to the martial arts, gain great skill, and become an instructor without ever having actually fought anybody. Sure, they may spar with heavy contact and compete... but never test their skills on the street. So would you train under such a person? Or must a true martial arts instructor have real, down and dirty street fighting experience?

It's been a while since I've read Karate-Do, My Way of Life but, IIRC, Gichin Funakoshi never once had to use his techniques to defend himself. Most people would consider him a martial artist and while the karate he taught on mainland Japan was noticeably different from the karate he learned on Okinawa he certainly was taught how to physically defend himself.

The question is, do you want to train to be a martial artist or a brawler? A brawler will be able to defend themselves on "the street." A martial artist will, too. But 99 times out of a hundred they won't have to.

Pax,

Chris

 

[MJS]

I think the real life experience does play a part. I mean, you can listen to the keyboard warriors, who spend more time 'thinking' they know stuff, and you can listen to guys who've put their stuff to the test. Now, on the flip side, I'm not one to take things on face value, and assume that because its worked for one, that it'll definately work for me. Does this mean I need to go out and get into a fight and test it out? I suppose you could, or you could test it in a controlled setting, with that added realism in there. Will it be the same? No, but if its trained right, you can get pretty close. I mean, every cop on the street hasn't fired his gun, yet during his training, he's put in a stressfull situation, to see how he'll react.

So, is it necessary? No, but again, its a plus. As I said, I do feel that its up to the student, to decide for themselves, whether or not, what they're learning, possibly from someone who's never put it to the test, will work.

 

[repz]

Some Martial Artists can say that not being in a fight is the victory. That defense of self includes avoidance. They avoided the pitfalls of low self esteem, and anger issues, to walk away, or not be involved with any possible altercations. In many ways this demands more control and discipline, than punching someone in the face and bragging about how effective it is in class.

 

[Xinglu]

Some Martial Artists can say that not being in a fight is the victory. That defense of self includes avoidance. They avoided the pitfalls of low self esteem, and anger issues, to walk away, or not be involved with any possible altercations. In many ways this demands more control and discipline, than punching someone in the face and bragging about how effective it is in class.

Agreed. 99.9% of self defense is not putting oneself into the situation where a physical altercation is necessary or appropriate.

With that in mind it is very possible for a person in today's society to have never had a fight. This is where lineage (who they've learned from) is important as well as their ability to transmit the knowledge they have learned effectively.

In the past, I have only been asked about how many fights I have personally been in by few people (and in all of those cases those asking where cocky and young) and never once have I told them. I consider it to be a very rude question.

 

[SensibleManiac]

This is a popular myth and fallacy in the martial arts.

I have met some great trainers and I have met some great fighters.
One can be exclusive of the other.
Think of how many great boxing trainers have been around.
Do you think Mike Tyson in his prime would have made a good instructor?
Just because someone can do something, doesn't mean he can teach it.

I remember someone telling me once that a student at a Karate school challenged the teacher and beat him, and then took over the school.
I found this story laughable.

Again, what does a good fighter have to do with being able to teach others?
Nothing, the two are completely different.
Obviously it helps if a trainer once had abilities and experience of his own even if it was a long time ago.
But to be able to teach he needs alot more than just having fighting experience and being a good fighter.

 

[Big Don]

I am an awesome shot. Pistol, rifle, or shotgun, I hit the bulls eye every time. I have, however, never shot a deer, a bear or a man, does that mean I can't teach marksmanship?

 

[Draven]

Sure, they may spar with heavy contact and compete... but never test their skills on the street. So would you train under such a person?

I sure would...

Or must a true martial arts instructor have real, down and dirty street fighting experience?

Most definately a large part of Self-Defense is avoid physical confrontations and therefore having no need to fight anyone. However, I would also like to add that if anyone comes at you with the "I'm a bad azz streetfighter" line they had better have a record of charges to back it up.

I fall into the lower middle class tax brachet & grew up poor. So allot of MA instruction came from Viet Nam era combat vets who had drug, alcohol & psychological issues. They were great fighters and had the rap sheets to prove they never left the war behind. When I was learning in a formal school I was also learning from "Uncle Chuck" & his biker buddies a few trailers up. If I was going to learn Karate, I go to a Karate school, Judo a judo school, SD I go to an SD instructor but if I want to learn about fighting I go to "Uncle Chuck" & his friends.

As I see it there are three kinds of altercations;
Fights; using physical force or threat there of to dominate a situation...
Self-Defense Situations; using physical force to defend & break contact with a unjustified assault.
Street-Fighting; basically combat with both parties trying to serverely injure or kill the other party.

This would be a good example, this weak end I was involved in a "fight" with four 19 y/o boys. I have been teach my 14 y/o cousin some basic Karate & Jujitsu & she has a back ground in Tai Chi already. She was teaching her boy friend the same stuff I was teaching her & four guys across the street all drunk started picking on him. To his defense he did almost choke out one of the 19 year olds. Well another kid jumps in and starts kicking him (hard) in the face when their on the ground. So I walk out side and tell them to ease off the kid. The one kicking him looks at me and asks what I was gonna do about it. So when he was posturing I caught with an upper cut and right cross and down he goes. The other three jump in and it was a party. Four on one and all I got was a black eye & all they got was a few lumps and bruises as well.

Now allot of people would call that a "street fight" I call it a "fight." I wasn't seriously trying to hurt anyone and they weren't trying to kill me. They were ust drunk & stupid. No one called the cops and the one kid's dad even applogized to me about the whole thing. Very few people have ever been in a real street fight and claim streetfighting experience of stupid fights without the element of intent to do severe harm.

I think thats were competition is important because i shows that you can apply those techniques effectively against resistance. But, being able to apply an arm bar and being able to not be mugged or assaulted are very different as well. In some cases you have to go to people with experience; that record of infractions with the law are why allot of criminals want to go to jail to have proof of their experience. Lineage means next to nothing except when claimed a certain "big name" taught you...

 

[K-man]

So my point is that a person may dedicate themselves to the martial arts, gain great skill, and become an instructor without ever having actually fought anybody. Sure, they may spar with heavy contact and compete... but never test their skills on the street. So would you train under such a person? Or must a true martial arts instructor have real, down and dirty street fighting experience?

Personally, I have not been in a fight for nearly 50 years and even then it was a schoolyard altercation that finished in about one second after my knee found his groin. I have 'fought' in tournaments, sustained broken ribs, fingers and toes. Does that qualify me to teach SD? I don't know. I have friends who used to go out and provoke people to fight so they could test their 'skills'. They worked. I have the same skills, just not tested. When I started martial art training, I thought I could defend myself. I soon found out how deluded I was. Over the years I have trained and grown my skill base. Will it stand up in the street situation? I suspect it will but I hope I never find out.
The biggest benefit of martial art and SD training for me is the confidence that I will give a good account of myself if the situation were to arise and that confidence translates into deterance. I am less likely to be a victim because I don't act like a victim.

 

[seasoned]

What MSJ said about Leo's holds true with the military also. Standing peace time army's train for war, and their training is realistic. But, until they are deployed, there could be a question about performance. The main thing with the above people and martial artist, would be mind set while training. Although a lot of us may not have many street war stories under our belts, I am sure there are many DoJo war stories that could be told. Aside from this, the martial arts teaches so much more in the way of dealing with life, on a daily basis. I am more interested in how an instructor carries himself, the way they teach their art, and their reputation in the community.