All us martial artists are going to HELL!!!

[marshallbd]

[size=+1]I found this one especially demonic:[/size]
[size=+1][/size]
[size=+1][/size]
[size=+1]TAI-CHI – or ‘Great Ultimate Fist’ – develops inner power and [/size][size=+1]Relaxation [/size]

Scary!

 

[kenpo tiger]

2) How was Christ not an extremist? He turned the religous (Jewish) order of his day completly on its head, caused people to turn their lives around, and to go out and spread His message (the gospel) to the reaches of their known world.

Mark

Not everyone. We Kung Fu Jews are still around. Ask Mark Weiser - and I'm sure there are others of us here.

Live and let live. KT

 

[kenpo tiger]

Paul

Thanks for the response, I added numbers to your post to address them. On the surface I agree these items seem like contradictions however I'll try and explain some of them for you.

If you look at the bible from one end to another as a whole not parts then these things fall into place and are not contradictory. I don't want to hijak the thread so once again if you disagree with me, find me in error etc. etc. if you want we can take this off line.

1) On the committing genocide issue/God being a God of peace and love. God is a holy and rightoues god who knows not sin, we are sinners (this is covered in Romans). God when he sent the Jews/children of Isreal out into the desert he told them to take the promise land by force, driving everyone out before them, basically killing every living thing. They didn't obey and within a short time what happened, they reverted back to idol worship (Bael), the OT repeatedly gives examples of God telling Isreal to do this and they instead did that, leading them astray. This was the reason for the extermenation, to remove the influenece of the other cultures.

2) Same point as above. Man had become very sinful so much it grieved God, therefore He sent judgement. And before anyone says well He shouldn't have done that, He had Noah build an ark that some scholars (I understand) say took well over 100 years to build. Now rain wasn't around then and no one but his family believed that anything was going to happen, life went on as usual till the day the floodgates opened and the rain came. God was patient He waited and still no one came. Again this is an example of how great man's sin was and his rejection of God.

3) God sent the angles to Lot in Soddom, possibly due to Lot being a decent man (he was an elder or some sort of judge/ruler/man of influence in the city), but I think it was to show Abraham that life was precious to Him (this is where Abraham's discourse with God comes in What about 50 good men, 40 good men, 30 good men all the way down to 5 I think) Out of a city/region (S&G) of 250,000 (aprox. figure I read somewhere) only five were saved. And actually when you look at what Lot did by offering up his virgin daughters to be raped by the men of the city instead of the angles. Then I have to wonder how rightoues he really was. In fact due to his wife wanting to turn around and look back and his daughters later on getting Lot drunk and sleeping with him, I really think it was God shiowing compassion for Abraham than Lot being rightoues.

4) David: when was he a terrorist? He was a king who screwed up, he was a king who turned away from God for a time and lost his kingdom to his son who raped his women/wives up on top of his palace to show the contempt he had for his father the king. Absoloam was so prideful that God judged him by having the source of his pride catch on or get caught on a tree branch so that one of David's generals could find him and kill him and put an end to the war. But David was so blinded by the love he had for his son he didn't want him harmed, which is why the general killed him because they knew David wouldn't.

5) Again the adultry issue is one of wipeing out the sinful influenece. The person who would end up stoning the women would be the man whom she sinned against. Think about the message that would send to everyone as well as the person throwing the first stone. Jesus brought forth the misunderstanding of this issue with the woman "let he who has no sin cast the first stone" He showed His/God's compassion by His next phrase "Go and sin no more". The same concept/punishment was given for a habitual unruly child as well. That man used this to allow for him to commit adultry but yet punish women is not God's fault.

6) The gospels are written from four different points of view for four different groups of people with four different emphasises. This does not mean they are false, or they did not happen. If you take an car accident and four different people saw it from different vantage points the stories might seem different but they all describe the same event. In this case it's the life of Jesus. He didn't meet the expetations of the Jewish people because they were looking for a different king, one that would set up the kingdom here on earth. Jesus came to offer a spiritual kingdom at this point in His life.

7) Again why Jesus has different names is because different people were describing Him, and in different times He was describing Himself. For instance John's gospel is meant to show that Jesus was the Son of God therefore he calls Him the Word "and the Word was God" Jhn.1:1 and John goes on to describe Jesus as diety.

8) It is rependant behaviour. It is faith in who Christ is (Peter and the early disciples, the thief on the cross), it is obeying God (Noah, Abraham, Moses) and loving God (David, Joseph) etc. etc. It's all one in the same fatih = action. It is knowing that we need the saviour and that we can't get there on our own, through good works, baptism, circumcison, keeping the law, etc. etc.

9) Now who called Moses out? God. Who didn't want to go? Moses. God told Moses to go and show pharoah these things. It wasn't a simple duel. God showed the pharoah these things to 1) demonstrate His power to an unbelieving country 2) demonstrate to the Isrealites that His power is real and He had come for His chosen people 3) This also helped Moses to have faith in God and in himself as the leader of the people in the days to come out in the wilderness. need I go on. These weren't "parlor tricks" The crossing of the Red Sea, the eating of mana, water from the rock, God residing in the tent and leading them out in the desert all lead up to them taking the promised land. And even then the people/Isrealites still grumbled and complained and were afraid of taking the land. And when they did take the land they still disobeyed and fell away.

10) Coming from my world view as a Christian I can't really agree here. But that's my opinon.

11) While I somewhat agree here on the parroting issue, I do agree that to often people only say something and don't really look into the true meaning behind what goes on. However while I have looked into and studied to a small degree other religions, Islam, Morrmonism, JW, 7th Day Adventists, Catholism, Freemasonary, different protesterant faiths, etc. etc. I have found that what I needed more study in was in my basic beliefs in the Christian faith. I've looked at these other religions through a Christian faith world view (so to speak, I was a Christian first so I know my view is biased on that belief system).

Anyway I don't want to hijak this thread. I offer up my apoligies if I've offened anyone. I was wanting to answer Paul's post here and I knew if I didn't do it tonight I wouldn't get back to it. It's late please forgive any misspellings as I've been typing here by the light of the monitor screen while my wife sleeps.

With respect
Mark

With all due respect, please read both Old and New Testament before offering certain things as 'gospel' (yes, pun intended). Also, please keep in mind that my people were, for the most part, ignorant sheepherders, poverty-stricken and oppressed slaves in Egypt - ripe for a new religion and someone to lead them in revolt against their oppressors.

And - Moses never led us into the Promised Land - it was Joshua, the general, the warrior, Moses' successor, who did. G-d told Moses he would never enter the Promised Land - it was all part of the deal. So, G-d sets us up to be invaders of this land (in your perspective and for argument's sake) and then punishes us for doing what he commanded. Talk about dysfunctional parents and children. You will see this in all religions' interactions with G-d - what was he thinking with the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? The Holocaust - which wiped out the majority of my family and that of my husband? The World Wars? All the Middle Eastern Wars? ANY wars? KT

 

[Baytor]

You will see this in all religions' interactions with G-d - what was he thinking with the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? The Holocaust - which wiped out the majority of my family and that of my husband? The World Wars? All the Middle Eastern Wars? ANY wars? KT

In my opinion, God did not direct men to start these things. They were done by men. I think that we can all agree that as a species, man is capable of doing evil things. What is more, I think that man will often use religion as an excuse to do these things. IMO, God is even more disgusted with those actions than we are. After all, He has had to put up with us skrewing up and blaming Him for quite a long time.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I think there probably are some people who feel that G-d did direct mankind to start those things. Personally, I think that most people manipulate their concept of who or what G-d is to suit their needs at the time, thus we're all going to hell because someone doesn't want to fully understand what we do as martial artists. KT

 

[Mark Weiser]

Here is the problem in talking with others about this issues you have to be careful in using terms or ideas that are very offensive to others. The Jewish People do not accept in any form anything in regards to the Christian Messiah. We also do not use the New Testament in any form. We can go into great lengths in this dialogue going back to Hebrew text.

I recommend any Christian to study the Torah in Hebrew you will be surprised on what you will find.

Anyway lol back to my prayers.

 

[MA-Caver]

MACaver
I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) Isn't your statement here like the pot calling the kettle black? I mean you talk about unleasing your anger at them for their sheer arrogance for their view point. And then you state our comments about them believing in being saved without being baptized. How do you know the guy who wrote this isn't baptized or that he or others who haven't been baptized aren't saved You state "the bible shows differently" I'll be glad to back it up that it doesn't show differently. For starters read Acts.

I spoke about NOT releasing my anger at their arrogance and superior attitudes. One fella I knew in particular (among many of the same "type" over the years) kept insisting that baptism wasn't necessary for salvation. That simply calling upon the name of the Lord was sufficent. He also insisted that I didn't KNOW Jesus... I kept telling him that I didn't know HIS Jesus and stalked off before I lost it with him.
As for the author of the website being baptisied or not?? His rhetoric sounds awfully lot liike those I've encountered before. So mebbe I'm making an **** outta myself or mebbe not. :idunno: One thing for sure... the guy is making an **** outta himself (IMO).

2) How was Christ not an extremist? He turned the religous (Jewish) order of his day completly on it's head, caused people to turn their lives around, and to go out and spread His message (the gospel) to the reaches of their known world.

That Jesus was an extremist is over simplifying the facts about his err... creation of a new faith/religion/belief system. He did use violence in act (moneychangers) and verbally (Peter). To say he was non-violent is a mis-nomer IMO.
Yes, he did radically change thinking and beliefs of the day but slowly, it was decades before Rome converted and the predominate Jewish faith/people didn't. There were thousands of converts by Paul and others after Jesus and the 12 but as a whole Judaism prevailed in Israel. It was the rest of the world that converted (or not). As for the Jews they should be respected for their own beliefs as we hold on to ours, neither should hold one against the other.

3) It was Peter who cut the guards off ear not Paul. Paul converted/gave his life to Christ on the road to Damascus in Acts. Jesus knew what He was going to do, He didn't need Peter to try and start anything. Peter wanted to try and stop Jesus from going to the cross since it didn't fit with his (Peter's) plan, remember "get behind me Satan", Peter was still acting on his own here in the garden. Jesus showed that He was still in control over things by healing the guards ear, not that a point was made that His followers would stand up and fight for Him if need be. Jesus went willingly to cross for us.

Yes, thank you (sincerely) for the correction. I suffer from occasional re-occurring bouts of foot-in-mouth disease. Peter fought for his Lord out of love (and fear) because of the things that Jesus spoke of during the last supper. He vowed that he would never be seperated or turn from his Lord. Thus the prophecy of the three crows of the (rooster) at dawn.
Peter made his claim to loyalty at Caesarea Philippi after pronouncing Him the Christ. Jesus then told them that He would "suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes" that they would kill Him but He would be raised again on the third day. Peter said in reply: "Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee." Thus Jesus angrily crying out "Gee thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thous savourest not the things that be of God but those that be of men." Matt: 16:21-23
As for the rest being points that Jesus was trying to (or not) make, it was all speculation on my part and mine alone. After all, each of us view the events before/during/after the Passion in our own ways. :asian:

"Christ then allowed Himself to be scourged and crucified, because He knew if He resisted it would 1. go against God's plan and 2....." There is no need for 2, enough said. (It would go against the Father's (God's) plan.)
Mark

Well, at least we agree upon somethings eh? :uhyeah:

~Peace~ :asian:

 

[bignick]

just out of curiosity....how'd this end up in the self defense forum?

 

[loki09789]

Here is the problem in talking with others about this issues you have to be careful in using terms or ideas that are very offensive to others. The Jewish People do not accept in any form anything in regards to the Christian Messiah. We also do not use the New Testament in any form. We can go into great lengths in this dialogue going back to Hebrew text.

I recommend any Christian to study the Torah in Hebrew you will be surprised on what you will find.

Anyway lol back to my prayers.

you can stay within the new testament for any surprises. I have had the chance to talk to Biblical scholars who were Jewish and, though they do not accept New Testament/Messianic text as divine, they are willing to run a compare/contrast and scholarly discipline to the new testament and found their insight and perspective VERY eye opening. They were the real source that forced me to question/examine the idea of a God of Love and Peace and the only description of God. If people are limited, flawed and complex. God, in his perfection, would have to be REALLY COMPLEX at such an ultimate level of exisitence.

Consider the number of translations and contextual meanings of the word "love" from Greek to English. We use one word for "love" and have to specificy "boyfriend/girlfriend love", "family love" where in the Greek there is "Eros" for lust or physical attraction, "Feliae" for family and fraternal, and "Agapei" for selflessness love or loyalty and devotion/faith love....

Also there is dispute over the whole Judas issue. The only time that the original text translates to "betray" instead of just "hand over" is in reference to Judas. Why? Some have argued that Biblical folklore/legends created an assumption on the part of the translators and that the polyglot of Christian sects through out the Mid East/Asian world created far more stories/myths that influenced practice than just the Canonized version of the Bible contains. The stations of the Cross that Catholics are so in love with is originally a Gnostic practice....Gnostics who were Ideological and ReligioPolitical rivals to the Constantinian powers once Rome became the "Holy Roman Empire."

The topper is the dispute of the "Virgin" issue in regards to Mary. Biblical scholars who study sources texts and all the linguistic possibilities have said that contextually the assumed/literal meaning of the original term that has been translated to "virgin" was more likely a common usage to mean "girl" or unmarried young woman/adolescent and not literally 'virgin. Much like we use Honorifics like Mrs or Miss/Maid which don't literally mean that the woman being addressed is anything other than Married (Mrs.) or not (Miss/Maid).

Boarman,

The thing to remember in referencing ancient peoples actions/views and statements is cultural context and NOT our current values. Lot offered his daughters up to the mob as the ultimate gesture of hospitallity to the Agents of God that were under his care. Women were second class citizens within the culture and, though loved and cherished in their own way, would have been 'traded' off for marriage any way. Bartering their virtue and possibly their lives for the protection of the men/agents of God/Angels within that culture and time would be considered almost noble.

There was no rain in the time of Noah? I don't know about that, since there really isn't any mention of "NO RAIN" in that portion of the text (at least in the English translations I have seen). The other thing to scratch your head over is the reference to the entire world being flooded over.... in a time when the American continents, England and parts of Europe would not have been known to a chronicler of that time per se. Taking hyperbole and exageration as accurate descriptions (especially from translations) instead of just story telling techniques is something to be cautious about. I am pretty sure that there was rain in Noah's time of possible existence, even if it was rare in a desert environment. I could discuss each numbered point in detail, but I think this example shows how even a single source translation to English can have multiple interpretations depending on how you are looking at it: Religious/Theologically, historical/archeological, Symbollic/metaphorical.... Or any combination of these. Don't even get me going on the Existential Christians and other Theological/Philosophical combinations that have sprouted up over time. THere are even Feminist interpretations of the Bible (not a jab, just an example of how many and varied the possible views of this piece of text will have.)

You seem to be confusing the thematic seam that you have found that works for you when you read through the Bible. My point was simply to point out the contradictions. You have found a way to reconcile them for yourself. Good. But, understanding the historical and cultural context of the times described, though doesn't change our own reaction, does put a perspective on things.

I know this is a long one, but one more point:

The mustard plant symbol that Jesus uses has been explained by modern Christians as a nice story of how Christianity will grow like a plant beyond the original seed it started from.....not to the ears/minds of the original audience.

The mustard plant is a bitter and tenaciaous weed that, though valuable for cooking and variety, leaves a bitter after taste that isn't pleasant like a fruit would be. Also, mustard plants are near impossible to get rid of once they have taken root.

So, to the listeners of this story from Jesus' own lips might take this metaphor to mean that Christianity would be a necessary but bitter spiritual medicine for people AND that once it took root in your soul (as well as a bitter problem for the Roman Empire and as a counter culture to the Jewish Pharetic structure) it would not be exterminated, but would grow inside you (holy spirit) to leave you with no choice but to wrestle with the changes that the 'seed' had set in motion....

That, to me, sounds more realistic and less Disney when you really contemplate how much people struggle with their spirtual lives BUT seem to think that once they have found Religion things are suppose to get easier...NO. Things don't get any easier, they get harder....but it is the hard that makes it worth it in the long run.

 

[loki09789]

What people are killing in the name of the "Christian God"? I see the people waging a "Jihad", but they are doing this in the name of Allah who is not a Christian God.

Actually, Muslims, like Jewish people, use the first five (Pentuegent Sp?) books of the old testament as part of their religious textual foundation. Christians too. Call it the Koran, Torah or Bible but we are all related by a common religious lineage... there are even scholars who try to say that the idea of Ressurection (Karma) may have been an "Eastern" concept introduced to Jewish people through trade contact... so the four largest religions might all be linked in a loose way.

All three religions share that common root.

There have been and are folks around the world (most notably was the Protestant/Catholic fighting in Ireland/N.Ireland, Anti abortionist assassins/bombers...Christian cultists who murder children through abuse....) using the name of Christian God to justify killings.

What is really a shocker is that Muslims learn about New testament issues and figures (Mary, Emmaculata and Jesus as prophet - but not messiah) and come to repect them. Unfortunately, the global association with the word "Muslim" is with Terrorism. Like any other group, the majority of those who fit under the heading of "Muslim" are far from the terrorist types that have gained it the false advertising it has gotten.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Actually, Muslims, like Jewish people, use the first five (Pentuegent Sp?) books of the old testament as part of their religious textual foundation. Christians too. Call it the Koran, Torah or Bible but we are all related by a common religious lineage... there are even scholars who try to say that the idea of Ressurection (Karma) may have been an "Eastern" concept introduced to Jewish people through trade contact... so the four largest religions might all be linked in a loose way.

All three religions share that common root.

There have been and are folks around the world (most notably was the Protestant/Catholic fighting in Ireland/N.Ireland, Anti abortionist assassins/bombers...Christian cultists who murder children through abuse....) using the name of Christian God to justify killings.

What is really a shocker is that Muslims learn about New testament issues and figures (Mary, Emmaculata and Jesus as prophet - but not messiah) and come to repect them. Unfortunately, the global association with the word "Muslim" is with Terrorism. Like any other group, the majority of those who fit under the heading of "Muslim" are far from the terrorist types that have gained it the false advertising it has gotten.

We refer to these as the Pentateuch, or the Five Books of Moses. One commentary I've read states that [the author feels that] the Torah is a book about humanity's understanding of and experience with G-d.

We Jews also have our fundamentalist groups, the Orthodox and Chasidic sects. The majority of those who fit under the heading of "Jews" are far from the types who wear the hats, long coats and beards - even in Israel.

So, assuming the common ground of the Pentateuch for us all, why are there those of us who are condemned and others not? KT

 

[loki09789]

We refer to these as the Pentateuch, or the Five Books of Moses. One commentary I've read states that [the author feels that] the Torah is a book about humanity's understanding of and experience with G-d.

We Jews also have our fundamentalist groups, the Orthodox and Chasidic sects. The majority of those who fit under the heading of "Jews" are far from the types who wear the hats, long coats and beards - even in Israel.

So, assuming the common ground of the Pentateuch for us all, why are there those of us who are condemned and others not? KT

If I knew the anwer to that I would have a better chance of being on the "going up" list than the "going down list"

Seriously, as I said before, for me, the truth comes as "Faith in works." If I was in Bosnia and saw a community soup kitchen serving those in need, I would not be able to tell if the people working together were Muslim, Christian/Catholic, Jewish.... because the actions of humane/common good are universal to all the major religions.

God/Jesus/Allah reserved judgement for him/them to pass not me. I can hope for the best quality life for people, recognize and be angry/pained when I see the wrongs that happen, but according to my faith (and most Judeo-Christian root faiths, including Islam) it is my role to live as best I can and make myself available to share my 'joy' with others and that is all.

Beyond that, I am not here to judge/banish/punish or accuse others of being 'wrong' or 'right' but to be a living example. Do I always do that? No. Do I always remember this stuff? No. But I keep trying to find divinity in people NOT WIELD IT AT THEM like a sword of judgement. People confuse evangelism (the act NOT the faith) and being apostate with being 'righteous' and judgemental.

I would say that the old testament view that Satan is not one evil being but as allegorical "adversary" (the term translates as a title NOT a character name until later associations are made through myth building) allows us to recongize that people can be "satan" like because they don't cooperate but focus on trying to trick and fool others because of the dark side of human motives (greed, lust, fear, envy....). Religious groups like any other groups can be kept together because of a common positive goal or a fear of a common enemy. Those groups who see fit to use fear to control and bond their groups are usually the strongest to 'damn' others instead of cooperating and recognizing the divinity in them as individuals.

I suggested an interfaith event with a local Mosc after 911 to show how terrorist/Muslims are not representative of the Muslim community and the fear factor was so large it got killed before it got off the ground. Same with the idea of working with a Synagogue.... If your faith, personal or organizational, isn't strong enough to sit with the "tax collectors and sinners" so to speak, maybe you have some deeper searching to do. Needless to say, I have opted to take advantage of one on one contact with other faiths to find understanding instead of groups... too risky to develop a 'heretic' reputation.

Religion was a political power historically longer than it has been a spiritual body, so there is still the remnants of 'nations' and borders in how it is viewed and practiced. I still hear stories of how the Irish Catholics in South Buffalo were told to cross the street and stay away from the stray Protestant or Jew if you came across them on your walk to or from school....

 

[Mark Weiser]

Okay here is one of the Main differences between Christianity and Judaism. It is in the Area of Evangelism.

Chirstians are mandated to spread "THE GOSPEL" on the other hand most Jewish people would prefer to be left alone and worship and live their lives in quiet and in peace seeing no need to evangelize. However there are no problems with someone wanting to convert to Judaism. They must follow a strict outline on becoming Jewish as set by the Rabbi of the Shul and or Rabbincial Counsels.

 

[Kane]

Check this out...we're all going to HELL!!!


http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/martia~1.htm


What a bunch of wing nuts!


Regards,


Steve

What's your point? There are nuts and idiots in all beliefs and religions.


There are a lot of atheists who think we should kill ourselves because we are overpopulating the planet. I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot more looney than anything any Christian has said.

 

[Ceicei]

What's your point? There are nuts and idiots in all beliefs and religions.


There are a lot of atheists who think we should kill ourselves because we are overpopulating the planet. I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot more looney than anything any Christian has said.

You do have a point. Whatever "group" of people there are, there will always be found some who are radicals/extremists/different and doesn't fit with the group. The only problem is when other groups view these specific people as representative of the group.

- Ceicei

 

[Tony]

Where on earth did this ignorant sh@t come from? How can Martial Arts be evil if they are taught by humble righteous people. Traditional Martial Arts and religion goes hand in hand. Take the Shaolin Monks who as well as practice Martial Arts are devout buddhists. Martial Arts only become evil when it is misused by those who do not have the right mindset, or even have bad instructors.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

just out of curiosity....how'd this end up in the self defense forum?

Good question. I didn't put it there, if I recall.


Regards,


Steve

 

[kenpo tiger]

I suppose it should probably be moved to the Study, assuming it hasn't run it course for the most part. KT

 

[DoxN4cer]

Check this out...we're all going to HELL!!!


http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/martia~1.htm


What a bunch of wing nuts!


Regards,


Steve

What a bunch of fundamentalist CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Kashino

 

[Mark Lynn]

Not everyone. We Kung Fu Jews are still around. Ask Mark Weiser - and I'm sure there are others of us here.

Live and let live. KT

KT

I'm sorry, I didn't mean everyone in the sense of the whole Jewish race, world etc. etc. I meant certain individuals who beame His followers who changed a direction in thier life. Turning from following the religous order/method they had been following to another way.

Mark