Aikido in action

[marvin8]

You did not answer this question clearly. And here we are going around in circles once again. Until you give a clear solid example of a street fighting scenario we cannot take this discussion any further. The ball is entirely in your court now.

Yes, it's irrelevant and a straw man. Please share your responses to the previously asked questions first:

In your words, why does ring fighting fail to prepare you for street fighting? What evidence do you have of this?

What are the clear differences you see? Then what is a better method to prepare for violent confrontations?

 

[drop bear]

I'm a big fan of asymmetric training. But the proper way to do it (IMO) is to establish different goals/victory conditions/rules of engagement for the different participants.

For example, I've expressed the opinion before that Aikido/Aikijutsu* techniques primarily make sense in the context of a swordsman being able to avoid being surprise dogpiled by a group of unarmed attackers before he can draw his sword. I didn't come up with the theory, but it helps explain a lot of Aikido/Aikijutsu techniques and tactics. The swordsman doesn't want to engage in a clinch to establish control for a wrist lock, because that enables his attackers to drag him down and prevent him from drawing the weapon which will allow him to win the fight. Instead, he wants to evade and stay at longer distances. Wristlocks aren't the goal. They're just a tool to force someone to let go if they are desperately trying to hang on to you long enough for their friends to catch up and tackle you.

So - how do we pressure test this idea? You don't do it by having two people square up to spar. You assign roles. One person has a long weapon like a training sword in their belt. Start in a semi-confined space like a ring or cage, with two unarmed attackers who get to initiate the test from within 3-4 feet of the defender. Attackers win if they can get a clinch which prevents the defender from drawing his weapon or drag him to the ground or get him pinned against the ropes/cage wall. Defender wins if he can draw his weapon and have his weapon arm free so that he could start swinging. You can make all sorts of adjustments to the basic scenario - more or fewer attackers, more or less space to operate in, attackers starting from different distances. You could even ditch the weapon and make it a simple escape drill - defender has an exit that they need to make it to, attackers need to stop them from making it to the exit. I think this might also be a context where Aikido tactics might be helpful.

I actually corresponded a little bit with Rokas back before he fully transitioned over to MMA and suggested that he try this approach to pressure testing, but I don't think he ever took my advice.

*(I reference Aikijutsu, because Aikido doesn't date back to the era of sword bearing samurai, but it was derived from Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, which does claim such a history. Although the documented history and koryu status of Daito Ryu itself is somewhat questionable, it probably derives from some older koryu art(s)).

The self defense championships would be a good example of what you are describing.

But I do have some pre conceptions on how a pudgy theoretical martial artists would go in that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes, it's irrelevant and a straw man. Please share your responses to the previously asked questions first:

In your words, why does ring fighting fail to prepare you for street fighting? What evidence do you have of this?

What are the clear differences you see? Then what is a better method to prepare for violent confrontations?

 

[marvin8]

Well, then it's a red herring or other informal fallacy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You'd probably both get more fruitful discussion if you actually answered each others questions instead of just asking for answers while not providing your own. Maybe that'll even prompt the other person to actually answer.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, then it's a red herring or other informal fallacy.

Your continued use of the Straw man accusation can be itself a straw man, and the labeling of what folks post is not at all helpful, puts folks and the defensive, not conducive to conversation or discussion and gets nothing accomplished..... good luck with that

 

[GojuTommy]

Walks through light punches and kicks because he doesn’t understand the effect they’d have on him.

Criticizes MMA rules and gets them wrong.

Yep he’s an aikido guy.

 

[GojuTommy]

The Aikido guy discussed some great concepts in the video above.

Comparing Musashi with D'Artagnan was interesting and informative. One character abides by the rules of a contest, the other does whatever is necessary to win. His thoughts reminded me of the recent wars in the Middle-East and the distant skirmishes of the Vietnam conflict.

In each of those wars, small guerrilla forces used simple tactics to destroy the morale, and superior firepower of the larger armies. They won because they used the mindset and tactics of Sun Tzu's great solider, whereas the conventional forces conformed to the rules and were severely beaten as a consequence.

Aikido is one of those styles which thoroughly confuses lots of martial artists. There seems to be a fixed idea of what it is and what it can do. Unfortunately, this kind of thinking is a failure because Aikido is a lot more fluid and adaptable than most martial artists realize.

The techniques of Aikido change constantly; every encounter is unique, and the appropriate response should emerge naturally. Today's techniques will be different tomorrow. Do not get caught up with the form and appearance of a challenge. Aikido has no form - it is the study of the spirit ~ Morihei Ueshiba

Leo Tamaki's comments on ritual fights as Alpha-male contests are also 100% accurate. This definition is one which will help you to see why competition-fighting fails to prepare anyone for the reality of everyday self-defense situations.

This point has been raised before, but it seems a number of martial artists are not really clear on the difference between dojo sparring, competitive matches and violent confrontations in daily life - prearranged fights are basically simple headbutting contests between two young bucks looking to discover the alpha male.

There is so much to unpack in this short Aikido video, and I have only just skimmed the surface. It will be fun to hear everyone else's thoughts on the topic. I am looking forward to reading your responses

“We train for tha streetz” is code for “we don’t know how to fight”

You want to learn to fight? Pressure test. How do you pressure test? Well first there need to be rules for safety.

SEAL hell week while candidates are crawling through muck people fire MGs over their heads. Roughly 20 ft over their heads so it’s safe. Is it 100% realistic? Not even close. Is anyone going to claim the SEALs don’t know what they’re doing?

 

[GojuTommy]

I'm a big fan of asymmetric training. But the proper way to do it (IMO) is to establish different goals/victory conditions/rules of engagement for the different participants.

For example, I've expressed the opinion before that Aikido/Aikijutsu* techniques primarily make sense in the context of a swordsman being able to avoid being surprise dogpiled by a group of unarmed attackers before he can draw his sword. I didn't come up with the theory, but it helps explain a lot of Aikido/Aikijutsu techniques and tactics. The swordsman doesn't want to engage in a clinch to establish control for a wrist lock, because that enables his attackers to drag him down and prevent him from drawing the weapon which will allow him to win the fight. Instead, he wants to evade and stay at longer distances. Wristlocks aren't the goal. They're just a tool to force someone to let go if they are desperately trying to hang on to you long enough for their friends to catch up and tackle you.

So - how do we pressure test this idea? You don't do it by having two people square up to spar. You assign roles. One person has a long weapon like a training sword in their belt. Start in a semi-confined space like a ring or cage, with two unarmed attackers who get to initiate the test from within 3-4 feet of the defender. Attackers win if they can get a clinch which prevents the defender from drawing his weapon or drag him to the ground or get him pinned against the ropes/cage wall. Defender wins if he can draw his weapon and have his weapon arm free so that he could start swinging. You can make all sorts of adjustments to the basic scenario - more or fewer attackers, more or less space to operate in, attackers starting from different distances. You could even ditch the weapon and make it a simple escape drill - defender has an exit that they need to make it to, attackers need to stop them from making it to the exit. I think this might also be a context where Aikido tactics might be helpful.

I actually corresponded a little bit with Rokas back before he fully transitioned over to MMA and suggested that he try this approach to pressure testing, but I don't think he ever took my advice.

*(I reference Aikijutsu, because Aikido doesn't date back to the era of sword bearing samurai, but it was derived from Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, which does claim such a history. Although the documented history and koryu status of Daito Ryu itself is somewhat questionable, it probably derives from some older koryu art(s)).

Ah yes. A martial art created in the age of gunpowder right before the nuclear age was ushered in was created for swordsmen, in case they were jumped while walking around with a sword alone!

Totally adds up as a theory.

 

[GojuTommy]

Also I would like to add a disclaimer to my statements.

When I talk about aikido or any style/art really, I’m referring to the training methods commonly found.
Any style/art will be able to be effective if you train in an effective manner assuming the style doesn’t revolve around magic no touch nonsense.

For me to believe aikido works I have only 1 requirement.

Regular and easy to find evidence of aikidoka using aikido against actively resisting people who are trying to do them harm in some way who are not students of the instructor or even dojo brothers/sisters.

I’m even demanding an aikidoka win all of these examples, but at the very least not get embarrassed by the other person. Trained or untrained it doesn’t much matter to me, but often violent aggressors will have some sort of training even if that’s just having been in a few fights before attacking you, so ideally a style/art should also work on a trained opponent.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ah yes. A martial art created in the age of gunpowder right before the nuclear age was ushered in was created for swordsmen, in case they were jumped while walking around with a sword alone!

Totally adds up as a theory.

As I said in the last line of my post, Aikido was created (in the early 20th century) after the age of sword-carrying samurai. But - it wasn't invented out of whole cloth. It was really just Ueshiba's personal rebranding of Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu. Daito-Ryu claims a history dating back centuries, but since the documentation is lacking to back that up, it's very likely that it was founded by Takeda Sokaku in the late 19th century. However, Takeda didn't invent the whole thing from scratch either, so his technical sources were almost certainly older koryu arts which would have been contemporaneous with armed samurai and unarmed peasants. I'm just offering a theory on how the tactics, principles, and techniques of Aikido/Aikijujutsu might have been originally intended to be used.

It would be really difficult to prove such historical speculation based on the sources we have available. What is possible is constructing pressure testing scenarios like the ones I suggested as an experiment to verify whether the Aiki arts would be an appropriate tool for that sort of context. Because they definitely aren't a great tool for one-on-one MMA style sparring.

 

[GojuTommy]

As I said in the last line of my post, Aikido was created (in the early 20th century) after the age of sword-carrying samurai. But - it wasn't invented out of whole cloth. It was really just Ueshiba's personal rebranding of Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu. Daito-Ryu claims a history dating back centuries, but since the documentation is lacking to back that up, it's very likely that it was founded by Takeda Sokaku in the late 19th century. However, Takeda didn't invent the whole thing from scratch either, so his technical sources were almost certainly older koryu arts which would have been contemporaneous with armed samurai and unarmed peasants. I'm just offering a theory on how the tactics, principles, and techniques of Aikido/Aikijujutsu might have been originally intended to be used.

It would be really difficult to prove such historical speculation based on the sources we have available. What is possible is constructing pressure testing scenarios like the ones I suggested as an experiment to verify whether the Aiki arts would be an appropriate tool for that sort of context. Because they definitely aren't a great tool for one-on-one MMA style sparring.

so a guy who was born way after people were done fighting with swords, decided to make adjustments to a style that was trained for centuries by people who fought with swords, to make something better at protecting a swordsman until he could draw his sword?
yep that logic totally checks out.
the founder of aikido died relatively recently, we have his intent of how the art was supposed to be used recorded pretty well...there's no need for people on the internet to theorize about it, like it was some long ago event and there's little to no documentation about what the founder believed and thought....
based on all the criticisms people who do aiki arts have of MMA no pressure testing scenario would be an accurate representation of said arts, because there will be rules for safety, there will either be limits on what techniques can be used, or there will safety equipment to limit the practitioner's ability to do certain techniques. the people who believe this stuff really works, via the methods they've been training will always have an excuse about how they or someone else would have been victorious had X variable for safety been changed.
the only way to get them to agree it doesn't work is for an aikidoka to just go out to 'tha streetz' and start fighting people randomly, and even then when the lose there's 2 possible excuses that they can make 1. well they just didn't do it right and weren't very good. or 2. well aikido didn't work because they were an aggressor and aikido is meant for defense.
watch rokas' most recent video, BJJ guys manage to do wrist locks while rolling, they manage to do arm locks, same with judoka, and even rokas has recently had some success with employing aikido techniques in combat sports style sparring, tomiki(?) can manage to make techniques and concepts from aikido work in a combat sport style setting.
the majority of techniques in aikido do have a solid basis in reality, enough to be usable, however the training methods are what cause the style to be largely ineffective. that's it. every 'explanation' for why there aren't people winning combat sports fights with aikido is just an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for spreading methods that don't work, and admitting the reality that they have wasted their time.
the head of my old organization was a shodan in aikido, and had a fairly high ranking daito ryu guy as the head aikijiujitsu guy in his dojo, however shihan was also 10th dan in karate, 9th in judo which he went to the olympics for, and a golden gloves boxer...and also not a small man lol, if he wanted to make an aikido technique work in his younger days i have no doubt he'd call on his striking, and grappling experience in other styles to make a lot of it work.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

so a guy who was born way after people were done fighting with swords, decided to make adjustments to a style that was trained for centuries by people who fought with swords, to make something better at protecting a swordsman until he could draw his sword?

No, I think you’re entirely misunderstanding what I’m saying.

My theory is that the original source material that Takeda and then Ueshiba drew upon to create Daito Ryu and then Aikido was likely (at least in part) intended to help a swordsman protect himself until he could deploy his weapon.

Because neither Takeda nor Ueshiba nor their students were swordsmen (and it’s unclear how much real fighting they ever engaged in), the original purpose of the techniques was lost over the generations.

BJJ guys manage to do wrist locks while rolling, they manage to do arm locks,

You do realize that I’m a BJJ instructor, right? I’m quite aware of how to make wrist locks and arm locks work using a BJJ approach. What distinguishes Aikido from arts like BJJ or Judo isn’t the existence of wrist locks or arm locks or any other particular technique. It’s the setups and underlying tactics for applying the moves.

however the training methods are what cause the style to be largely ineffective. that's it.

The training methods in (most branches of) Aikido are certainly a problem. Purely cooperative training focused entirely on blending with a partner who gives you overcommitted energy isn’t going to get you very far in being able to apply techniques against a competent non-compliant opponent. That’s why if I was ever to train Aikido it would be Tomiki Aikido where at least they do a form of sparring.

But even with good training methods, most of Aikido ends up being relatively suboptimal and low-percentage in a combat sport setting. I can sometimes opportunistically catch someone with an Aikido style move in sparring (usually because they haven’t seen it and aren’t expecting it), but if I hadn’t already spent the time learning those techniques in previous arts before I started BJJ, I wouldn’t consider them worth the investment of time and energy.

However, if I recontextualize the purpose of the Aikido techniques and tactics, then they make more sense. If I want to engage with an opponent who’s swinging on me, I’m not going to try to grab him and force a kote gaeshi. I’ll do something like strike my way into a clinch, get a single leg takedown, move to knee on belly and use strikes to set up a choke or arm lock. Much, much more reliable. Aikido tactics are something I might use if I’m trying to avoid engagement long enough to escape the situation or deploy a weapon.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Yes.

Okay, it is clear we have a different perspective and definition of self-defense. In the video you shared, all I see is a security guy knocking out a small guy. The fight against Mike Tyson was not so easy, but then again not too many boxers were brave enough to share the ring with Tyson in the first place

 

[Taiji Rebel]

It seems Aikido is not so popular here on the forum.

The guy in the video was not denigrating MMA in any way. He was just pointing out that it is a ritual fight with rules. My original post offered some old quotes in relation to some of his ideas. These ideas struck me as interesting, so I thought it would be of value to discuss them here.

The playfighting on the video holds no interest in my eyes. And all this talk of proving Aikido 'works' is not entirely relevant - I am not even certain what you guys mean when you use the term 'works'

Yet again, Marvin8 refuses to define what street fighting is to him, or give any examples, unless I answer his questions first. I have also previously asked him what kind of style he trains in, what his club does to prepare for their students for self-defense scenarios and more, but once again he refuses to answer.

The original video is talking about using your brain for a change. If all you have is a hammer, then everything becomes a nail

If all you wish to do in a 'so-called' street fighting (self-defense?) situation is fight, then martial arts which feature sparring and competition fighting will be perfect for you

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Taiji Rebel is making those claims. And using that video as a basis for those claims.

Are you 100% certain Taiji Rebel is making these claims?

I had a quick word with Mr. Rebel and he fails to understand why you make this claim

 

[drop bear]

It seems Aikido is not so popular here on the forum.

The guy in the video was not denigrating MMA in any way. He was just pointing out that it is a ritual fight with rules. My original post offered some old quotes in relation to some of his ideas. These ideas struck me as interesting, so I thought it would be of value to discuss them here.

The playfighting on the video holds no interest in my eyes. And all this talk of proving Aikido 'works' is not entirely relevant - I am not even certain what you guys mean when you use the term 'works'

Yet again, Marvin8 refuses to define what street fighting is to him, or give any examples, unless I answer his questions first. I have also previously asked him what kind of style he trains in, what his club does to prepare for their students for self-defense scenarios and more, but once again he refuses to answer.

The original video is talking about using your brain for a change. If all you have is a hammer, then everything becomes a nail

If all you wish to do in a 'so-called' street fighting (self-defense?) situation is fight, then martial arts which feature sparring and competition fighting will be perfect for you

I think it is important to be able to win a fight in self defense.

I think that should essentially be the base line.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I think it is important to be able to win a fight in self defense.

I think that should essentially be the base line.

When you say win a fight in self-defense - can you give an example and help me to understand what kind of scenario you are referring to?

 

[drop bear]

Okay, it is clear we have a different perspective and definition of self-defense. In the video you shared, all I see is a security guy knocking out a small guy. The fight against Mike Tyson was not so easy, but then again not too many boxers were brave enough to share the ring with Tyson in the first place

Yes that is called asymmetric fighting. The big guy who can fight can employ asymmetric fighting under more situations than the little guy who can't fight.

That gives the big guy the advantage most of the time.

Self defence is about creating that advantage. And restricting the other person's advantage.

Which is a lot harder if you don't have the right tools.

Now that is a very serious situation. People die from those sorts of interactions. And so managing those sorts of things becomes very important.

It is part of a wide range of self defence concepts.

 

[drop bear]

When you say win a fight in self-defense - can you give an example and help me to understand what kind of scenario you are referring to?

Pictured: The battered and bruised face of a burglar who got on the wrong side of a 72-year-old former boxer

A burglar who broke into a house and attacked a pensioner got more than he bargained for when his 72-year-old victim turned out to be a retired boxer.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Or this.