Aikido against a boxer

[Gerry Seymour]

Nage is not moving fast enough to avoid punches from someone who is specialised in hitting fast moving people.

Same deal as I said to Gpseymor. Get someone who is a lot lighter than you to really go for you. And see what sort of time and space you have to play with.

Because not understanding timing is the bulk of what messes people up.

That's where a striking game is important. Good strikes create opportunities. I'm not going to out-box a boxer, but if I have a good set of strikes, I can control distance somewhat (adding my kicks in, to disrupt his usual entries a bit). And that's what sparring is for. Mind you, I don't feel a driving need to get to aiki techniques. If he's fast but I can get to a clinch, I'll work what I have there, while I try to keep his movement down, take away that power zone.

 

[drop bear]

Simplest answer - the boxer changes his angle to respond, get the guy out of his blind spot, probably answers with the other hand. That's assuming the guy who slipped it doesn't get his punch in first and change the beat. If the guy who slipped it had a hand free (damned gloves) to grab with, he'd have other options for slowing that response. Okay, not as many unless dude puts a shirt on (damned sweaty boxer).

Yeah. Doesn't just stand there and let's you gain ground. If he is specifically trained to fight grapplers they sacrifice long combinations to maintain good striking distance.

 

[Ryback]

Have you tested this?

I have tested a lot of things, the fact that I am not cross training doesn't mean that I don't know any people from other martial arts or combat sports and even though I was successful still it doesn't prove anything other than the fact that I was successful that specific moment with those specific people...
Don't misunderstand the fact that cross training is not my cup of tea, I have exchanged information, techniques and questions with a few people...
Not to mention the fact that I don't need to test it first to know that it's not a good idea to cook my meal using my CD player...
The thing is that a boxer has certain skills, mainly to punch people and to protect his upper body behind his arms and fists. Do you know how many combative skills is Aikido cultivating?? Joint manipulations, projections (what you would call throwing but with different basic principles), means of deflecting strikes and kicks, attemi and Keri waza, weapons, disarming, you name it. Not to mention of course one of the most important aspects, the inner, esoteric part, Ki and Kokyu principles...
To believe that a boxer is invulnerable and the ultimate invincible answer to Aikido just because he is a good punch is at least ridiculous, it would have been funny if it wasn't so tragic!!
At this moment, I feel like a Monty Python skit, where the time comes for Graham Chapman to say "don't you think that conversation has gone a bit silly?"
The "invulnerable boxer" claim has soooooooo hit the brakes for my interest in this!!
I believe I offered whatever I had to offer in the thread for what it's worth, I liked the agreements and disagreements with people that made the conversation constructive, regardless of their point of view.
I wish everyone a happy journey with their martial arts quest and see you guys around in another thread maybe, it's been an honour talking with most of you!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you can enter in hard and get that neck you will get a space. Pretty much everyone who goes this uses covering rather than trapping.

The best example of trapping entering and taking control of that blind side in real time is lomenchenko. And that is why he is rated so highly

On a boxer (or other fast striker), I'd expect to use shoulder/head control more than elbow/wrist control. And I'm probably going to play with his legs and hips, to break his rhythm.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. Doesn't just stand there and let's you gain ground. If he is specifically trained to fight grapplers they sacrifice long combinations to maintain good striking distance.

Again, that's why grapplers need strikes.

 

[drop bear]

I have tested a lot of things, the fact that I am not cross training doesn't mean that I don't know any people from other martial arts or combat sports and even though I was successful still it doesn't prove anything other than the fact that I was successful that specific moment with those specific people...
Don't misunderstand the fact that cross training is not my cup of tea, I have exchanged information, techniques and questions with a few people...
Not to mention the fact that I don't need to test it first to know that it's not a good idea to cook my meal using my CD player...
The thing is that a boxer has certain skills, mainly to punch people and to protect his upper body behind his arms and fists. Do you know how many combative skills is Aikido cultivating?? Joint manipulations, projections (what you would call throwing but with different basic principles), means of deflecting strikes and kicks, attemi and Keri waza, weapons, disarming, you name it. Not to mention of course one of the most important aspects, the inner, esoteric part, Ki and Kokyu principles...
To believe that a boxer is invulnerable and the ultimate invincible answer to Aikido just because he is a good punch is at least ridiculous, it would have been funny if it wasn't so tragic!!
At this moment, I feel like a Monty Python skit, where the time comes for Graham Chapman to say "don't you think that conversation has gone a bit silly?"
The "invulnerable boxer" claim has soooooooo hit the brakes for my interest in this!!
I believe I offered whatever I had to offer in the thread for what it's worth, I liked the agreements and disagreements with people that made the conversation constructive, regardless of their point of view.
I wish everyone a happy journey with their martial arts quest and see you guys around in another thread maybe, it's been an honour talking with most of you!

It doesn't matter how many combative skills you cultivate. If it is not based on a useful basic foundation.

You don't win fights by having more techniques. You win them by being better.

 

[drop bear]

Again, that's why grapplers need strikes.

They need to know how the dynamics of striking works. So they don't constantly rush in to traps.

And some lomenchenko.

You will see how he constantly gets that angled entry.

 

[Ryback]

It doesn't matter how many combative skills you cultivate. If it is not based on a useful basic foundation.

You don't win fights by having more techniques. You win them by being better.

For the last time mate, and this time I mean it, you are making no sense whatsoever and it's because you are not even trying to make!
Who's gonna judge such a holistic art as Aikido and claim that it has no useful foundation?? The.....invulnerable boxer??
I'm soooo out of here, like, for good.

 

[drop bear]

On a boxer (or other fast striker), I'd expect to use shoulder/head control more than elbow/wrist control. And I'm probably going to play with his legs and hips, to break his rhythm.

Change levels is still safest because you don't have to fart around identifying and redirecting strikes. He will probably be going for your head. So you can just guess.

 

[drop bear]

For the last time mate, and this time I mean it, you are making no sense whatsoever and it's because you are not even trying to make!
Who's gonna judge such a holistic art as Aikido and claim that it has no useful foundation?? The.....invulnerable boxer??
I'm soooo out of here, like, for good.

How is Aikido holistic?

And Aikido guys who cross train have been judging it.

Is these issues invalid?

 

[now disabled]

For the last time mate, and this time I mean it, you are making no sense whatsoever and it's because you are not even trying to make!
Who's gonna judge such a holistic art as A


Chill bro ...he is not getting at you just agree to disagree

 

[now disabled]

How is Aikido holistic?

And Aikido guys who cross train have been judging it.

Is these issues invalid?

I think he is meaning that Aikido is holistic in it's approach as in the big picture and that all things are inter connected

 

[drop bear]

I think he is meaning that Aikido is holistic in it's approach as in the big picture and that all things are inter connected

Yeah. But even then. Origionally designed to be paired with judo?

I think to do Aikido you need to be able to punch kick and wrestle well. And I think people miss that.

 

[now disabled]

Yeah. But even then. Origionally designed to be paired with judo?

I think to do Aikido you need to be able to punch kick and wrestle well. And I think people miss that.

no not paired with judo lol There were quite a few of the original deshi that were judoka and as I said before Kano sent some of his students to Ueshiba to study

I agree you do need to know how to strike I have said many times that Aikido does have atemi, There are just no set drills for teaching that or kicking, I have said before that I believe and was told that when Ueshiba started teaching (ok I don't mean Daito ryu or Aiki-jujutsu ) his original students all knew how to punch and strike due to the backgrounds they came from so he didn't teach what they already knew. So it has got let out kinda in modern schools, He did say many times that Aikido was dependent on atemi (he did quote a number % I can't remember it tho lol) and it should be noted that Ueshiba back then didn't really teach publicly he kinda selected when he started to teach Aikido ...Also he didn't teach much at the Aikikai really that was his son and others (I'm not saying he didn't ) he was in Iwama

 

[drop bear]

no not paired with judo lol There were quite a few of the original deshi that were judoka and as I said before Kano sent some of his students to Ueshiba to study

I agree you do need to know how to strike I have said many times that Aikido does have atemi, There are just no set drills for teaching that or kicking, I have said before that I believe and was told that when Ueshiba started teaching (ok I don't mean Daito ryu or Aiki-jujutsu ) his original students all knew how to punch and strike due to the backgrounds they came from so he didn't teach what they already knew. So it has got let out kinda in modern schools, He did say many times that Aikido was dependent on atemi (he did quote a number % I can't remember it tho lol) and it should be noted that Ueshiba back then didn't really teach publicly he kinda selected when he started to teach Aikido ...Also he didn't teach much at the Aikikai really that was his son and others (I'm not saying he didn't ) he was in Iwama

I understand Aikido does have striking. And just to insult everyone fairly. I feel it is kind of like when karate says they have grappling.

You can't just have it in your syllabus. It also has to actually work.

I mean hopefully this guys answer to Judo is not going to be. "Yeah but we have throws"

 

[now disabled]

I understand Aikido does have striking. And just to insult everyone fairly. I feel it is kind of like when karate says they have grappling.

You can't just have it in your syllabus. It also has to actually work.

I mean hopefully this guys answer to Judo is not going to be. "Yeah but we have throws"

The atemi do work lol it just they are rarely ever taught and that is wrong and I agree. It is a failing in most (not all) of the schools that they leave that out in a way it can be that it is possibly assumed that when you reach a certain level you should understand where to apply atemi and when, unfortunately that doesn't always work and when schools are set up if the teacher has not be taught that or hasn't grasped that or he is taking it another way then that results in it be thought that it not there.

 

[now disabled]

@drop bear

I am more than sure that you could teach me how to punch in a better manner and with more power and not letting the gaps appear

Where Aikido may enhance you or further your knowledge (I am not being nasty) is the body dynamics and how they work ie breaking balance in a different way to you are taught how if a certain body part is manipulated how it can cause things to happen that if done properly the human body has to follow

 

[drop bear]

The atemi do work lol it just they are rarely ever taught and that is wrong and I agree. It is a failing in most (not all) of the schools that they leave that out in a way it can be that it is possibly assumed that when you reach a certain level you should understand where to apply atemi and when, unfortunately that doesn't always work and when schools are set up if the teacher has not be taught that or hasn't grasped that or he is taking it another way then that results in it be thought that it not there.

In that regards it is the half pace stuff that gets me. And everyone does this. They just get used to the manufactured large amounts of time and space. And start filling that with ideas that dont work very well.

I can take advantage of a correctly thrown punch at 50% more than I can take advantage of an incorrectly thrown one at 100%

Even boxing sparring done light the rules of what works changes.

You are fundamentally playing around with different physics.

 

[drop bear]

@drop bear

I am more than sure that you could teach me how to punch in a better manner and with more power and not letting the gaps appear

Where Aikido may enhance you or further your knowledge (I am not being nasty) is the body dynamics and how they work ie breaking balance in a different way to you are taught how if a certain body part is manipulated how it can cause things to happen that if done properly the human body has to follow

Correct. And of course the trick is to do both well.

 

[now disabled]

In that regards it is the half pace stuff that gets me. And everyone does this. They just get used to the manufactured large amounts of time and space. And start filling that with ideas that dont work very well.

I can take advantage of a correctly thrown punch at 50% more than I can take advantage of an incorrectly thrown one at 100%

Even boxing sparring done light the rules of what works changes.

You are fundamentally playing around with different physics.

also students change to some because Aikido is marketed the way it is think it passive and non aggressive and they see all the big throws and it impresses them and they trot along. Very few actually even consider the martial side