Aikido against a boxer

[drop bear]

True of all grappling arts. That's why strikes are needed. If you have a low entry (single/double-leg), you might be able to slip in below the big guns, but you're still working to penetrate his specialized range.

The reason they do it is to sort of guess the other guy will strike at the head. So that they can be moving in to the grapple while he is going for the strike

That way it is one beat vs one beat and they have a bit of initiative.

Do make all of this happen you have to understand how boxers work.Otherwise you are going to try to parry the strike and enter on that same level and more likely than not get your head punched in.

Once the distance is closed. Then boxers have to understand how grapplers work.

Effective strikes are needed. Not Rhonda Rousey boxing. If you are getting smashed apart by the better striker. Desperately closing the gap is still a risky proposition.Because you generally hit that close from too far away.

 

[drop bear]

That doesn't seem to follow from the post you quoted. Did you mean to reply to my post, where I commented about committing weight?

Yeah. judo throws.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From what you have said and the very limited amount I have seen of NGA you guys do blend and I would say use smaller circles as opposed to alot of Aikido which uses large circle

Our circles are definitely smaller. I've taught a few folks who came from Aikikai (I think all of them were), and the main change for them was tighter circles and earlier reversals. I probably abuse that, often cutting the circle short and getting out of flow.

 

[drop bear]

It's the grappler's paradox. If he gets the arm, he probably wins with a high percentage. If he doesn't, he has to face another punch. If he tries for the arm, he's more exposed to the next punch, but if he doesn't he's no closer to stopping the punches. The key is controlling the situation until an arm is handy, rather than trying to grab an arm out of the air. Getting to an arm isn't that tough - it happens all the time in boxing. Getting to it with the right timing is the tough part. Of course, the better the boxer, the harder it is to get to, as you'd expect. I'm never getting ahold of Mayweather's arm...well, maybe if he doesn't hit me too hard, he'll let me have his arm to help me up off the floor.

Shoulder down. Not wrist up.Because the closer to the body you are the less it is moving.

Secret of standing wristlocks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. judo throws.

When I say "commit weight", I'm using a term I use in my classes. A boxer reserves weight - doesn't let it get past the middle of his front foot unless he's delivering a power punch. With a Jab, his weight is probably at or behind his front heel. When he reaches with an overhand (probably after landing something solid, so the other guy is on his heels and a step away), he doesn't reserve that weight - he commits his weight further forward. That would be much easier to blend on...assuming he hadn't already hit me with something solid, which he just did.

The same is true in Judo. The reason Judo players in the Olympics stand in basically the same spot most of the match is that they're reserving weight. They know the moment they commit weight, they have to complete a throw or they're going down.

Pretty much all kicks commit weight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Shoulder down. Not wrist up.Because the closer to the body you are the less it is moving.

Secret of standing wristlocks.

Agreed. They are often taught early as an easy start at the wrist, but the application will nearly always be sliding down from elbow or shoulder. Those don't move so fast, and if you screw up you still have options (which is far less true if you're trying directly for the wrist).

 

[drop bear]

I am not going to argue.

I have only respect for boxers and there art and the training they put in and any person that puts in that amount of training and devotion has my respect.

I just cannot as I said fully agree with you on all you say and I am not skilled enough in words to describe things.

You have your views and I have no issue with that but I am not going to agree when I don't and saying I will not see a punch coming at speed. How do you know? it is your opinion on what you have seen of Aikido

Almost nobody sees a puch coming at speed. how do you think overhand rights work?

Elite fighters cant even get a hand in the way. One hand about 4 inches.

Now there is a tricks to seeing them if you play around with angles and range. But you would really want to know those tricks.

 

[Martial D]

Almost nobody sees a puch coming at speed. how do you think overhand rights work?

Elite fighters cant even get a hand in the way. One hand about 4 inches.

Now there is a tricks to seeing them if you play around with angles and range. But you would really want to know those tricks.

You can't fight faith with reason bro. Save your breath on this one.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. They are often taught early as an easy start at the wrist, but the application will nearly always be sliding down from elbow or shoulder. Those don't move so fast, and if you screw up you still have options (which is far less true if you're trying directly for the wrist).

And In all honesty If I wanted to Aikido some guy. I would get to where I am safe first, Which is body to body, Then fart around doing whatever.

This applying grappling at striking range is suicide.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Almost nobody sees a puch coming at speed. how do you think overhand rights work?

Elite fighters cant even get a hand in the way. One hand about 4 inches.

Now there is a tricks to seeing them if you play around with angles and range. But you would really want to know those tricks.

I normally see punches coming. I don't always know which punch is coming, though. Boxing has some added complications. The gloves block some vision (a reasonable compromise for their defensive use), and the tucked head/raised shoulder limits some of what they see. All of that's a reasonable compromise, especially when all that's coming is punches. And boxers are punch specialists, so they are better at disguising punches than most folks, even if they don't do it purposely.

 

[pdg]

In the simplest expression, blending either moves with the direction of the attack (you pull, I step in faster than you can move back) or crosses a straight line at an angle to turn it into a circle (you step in to punch with a right hook, I enter off-line to your left, taking your arm with me). That's sort of the starting point for blending, and you can see there's two different versions even at the start. The easiest description - never meet force with force, but find a way to work with the movement they give, rather than against it - matches your ideas.

Mind you, my "blending" is probably not 100% the "blending" in Aikido, but it's a very close concept.

I don't tend to think much in circular terms at the mo.

But force on force I can agree is (almost always) not the greatest plan.

My idea of a block isn't using my force to stop the other person's force dead in it's tracks, but more like an angular redirection.

One small example, there's a turning kick heading for me. I'm unlikely to try to block that at 90° with my forearm if it's anything like full power. I'll go toward say 45-75° (ish), aiming to get that kick sliding along my arm to reduce the impact. Coupled with moving in the same direction, even slightly, really takes the oomph out of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And In all honesty If I wanted to Aikido some guy. I would get to where I am safe first, Which is body to body, Then fart around doing whatever.

This applying grappling at striking range is suicide.

Yeah, when I see that range used, I wonder why. It looks to me like he's actually moving the guy forward, and it would be both easier and safer to move himself back behind the shoulder. I mean, he already has connection to that arm. But it's a still photo, so I can't really tell what he's doing, much less why.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, when I see that range used, I wonder why. It looks to me like he's actually moving the guy forward, and it would be both easier and safer to move himself back behind the shoulder. I mean, he already has connection to that arm. But it's a still photo, so I can't really tell what he's doing, much less why.

Yeah. It was just to show a position.

 

[pdg]

Almost nobody sees a puch coming at speed. how do you think overhand rights work?

Elite fighters cant even get a hand in the way. One hand about 4 inches.

This comes down to how you describe seeing it coming.

I'd say the very vast majority of people would see a punch coming in the terms of something coming toward them.

If you count "seeing it coming" as being able to read a punch is about to be initiated, that's a different thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't tend to think much in circular terms at the mo.

But force on force I can agree is (almost always) not the greatest plan.

My idea of a block isn't using my force to stop the other person's force dead in it's tracks, but more like an angular redirection.

One small example, there's a turning kick heading for me. I'm unlikely to try to block that at 90° with my forearm if it's anything like full power. I'll go toward say 45-75° (ish), aiming to get that kick sliding along my arm to reduce the impact. Coupled with moving in the same direction, even slightly, really takes the oomph out of it.

You use circles (as we define them), but it's not your vocabulary. I've seen some skilled TKD guys move with strikes in ways that would make any Aikidoka proud. You tend to talk angles (as does Shotokan Karate) because you're moving for strikes (they often like that 45 degree angle to expose a kick). It's a small adjustment to use a similar angle to enter to the center of a circle. The circle is what happens around you in grappling. Think of the basic arm drag - once that foot sets, the other guy is pulled in an arc. That's the circle, and the foot is the center point.

 

[drop bear]

This comes down to how you describe seeing it coming.

I'd say the very vast majority of people would see a punch coming in the terms of something coming toward them.

If you count "seeing it coming" as being able to read a punch is about to be initiated, that's a different thing.

Look at those overhands. How much reaction did they get.

 

[pdg]

Look at those overhands. How much reaction did they get.

Being unable to react in time doesn't mean they didn't "see" a fist shaped object heading toward them.

I've been hit plenty of times, in almost every single instance I saw that a glove was heading at me.

In far from almost every instance did I have time to react.

 

[now disabled]

And In all honesty If I wanted to Aikido some guy. I would get to where I am safe first, Which is body to body, Then fart around doing whatever.

This applying grappling at striking range is suicide.

ummm it probably a demo and that is nikkyo he is applying and he wouldn't just start like that but I guess it pointless saying that lol

 

[now disabled]

Yeah, when I see that range used, I wonder why. It looks to me like he's actually moving the guy forward, and it would be both easier and safer to move himself back behind the shoulder. I mean, he already has connection to that arm. But it's a still photo, so I can't really tell what he's doing, much less why.

He is doing a form of nikkyo and unless he was doing it just to show the nikkyo application then other things would have happened and he has just applied and his next motion is to move his leg closest to uke backwards (kinda) and away bring uke down and it would have been done at speed, the camera has caught only the application of nikkyo

 

[O'Malley]

And In all honesty If I wanted to Aikido some guy. I would get to where I am safe first, Which is body to body, Then fart around doing whatever.

This applying grappling at striking range is suicide.

This particular technique has two factors that should (in theory) prevent the opponent from retaliating with strikes.

1) the aikidoka should move offline to prevent punches and kicks with the opposite hand/foot from reaching him

2) once in this position, he should send pressure through the arm into the spine, off-balancing the opponent. I had this done to me by a direct student of M. Saito, it feels like someone is sitting on your spine and that sends you to your knees. Ok the wrist hurts (and can hurt like hell) but it is not about inducing compliance with pain, it's not a wrist lock. I don't know whether I'm explaining it clearly haha.