Aikido against a boxer

[now disabled]

nikkyo is a wrist lock and there are again omote and ura and there is more than one way to apply nikkyo

 

[Martial D]

This particular technique has two factors that should (in theory) prevent the opponent from retaliating with strikes.

1) the aikidoka should move offline to prevent punches and kicks with the opposite hand/foot from reaching him

2) once in this position, he should send pressure through the arm into the spine, off-balancing the opponent. I had this done to me by a direct student of M. Saito, it feels like someone is sitting on your spine and that sends you to your knees. Ok the wrist hurts (and can hurt like hell) but it is not about inducing compliance with pain, it's not a wrist lock. I don't know whether I'm explaining it clearly haha.

Depends on the theory I guess. Another theory is you will get hit repeatedly while trying to manipulate the arm. it's a matter of trying to get 3 or 4 movements in before a striker can get one movement in that's faster than any of the ones you are trying to do in sequence. It looks really good when the other guy is co-operating. Good enough to create believers in fact.

That's why theories are useless until they are tested, and you just don't see people winning fights using classical aikido strategy and technique, anywhere. If I'm wrong, show me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This applying grappling at striking range is suicide.

You can't judge by the initial position. If you enter from the side door (the blind side) by surprise, it can be a very effective move.

If I can "manage" to put my thumb in my opponent's palm and put my other 4 fingers on the back of his hand, I'll have 90% chance to take him down.

 

[now disabled]

Depends on the theory I guess. Another theory is you will get hit repeatedly while trying to manipulate the arm. it's a matter of trying to get 3 or 4 movements in before a striker can get one movement in that's faster than any of the ones you are trying to do in sequence. It looks really good when the other guy is co-operating. Good enough to create believers in fact.

That's why theories are useless until they are tested, and you just don't see people winning fights using classical aikido strategy and technique, anywhere. If I'm wrong, show me.

Nikkyo

I shall await you picking this apart

 

[drop bear]

This particular technique has two factors that should (in theory) prevent the opponent from retaliating with strikes.

1) the aikidoka should move offline to prevent punches and kicks with the opposite hand/foot from reaching him

2) once in this position, he should send pressure through the arm into the spine, off-balancing the opponent. I had this done to me by a direct student of M. Saito, it feels like someone is sitting on your spine and that sends you to your knees. Ok the wrist hurts (and can hurt like hell) but it is not about inducing compliance with pain, it's not a wrist lock. I don't know whether I'm explaining it clearly haha.

Yeah. If it is locked on. Getting there is where the issue lies.

 

[drop bear]

You can't judge by the initial position. If you enter from the side door (the blind side) by surprise, it can be a very effective move.

If I can "manage" to put my thumb in my opponent's palm and put my other 4 fingers on the back of his hand, I'll have 90% chance to take him down.

So the get to where I am safe first bit.

 

[drop bear]

Nikkyo

I shall await you picking this apart

He just did. The two beat movement in one beat space is precisely the issue there.

 

[drop bear]

ummm it probably a demo and that is nikkyo he is applying and he wouldn't just start like that but I guess it pointless saying that lol

OK. Can you show me that in a situation that is not a demo?

 

[now disabled]

He just did. The two beat movement in one beat space is precisely the issue there.

ok explain your two beat

 

[drop bear]

He is doing a form of nikkyo and unless he was doing it just to show the nikkyo application then other things would have happened and he has just applied and his next motion is to move his leg closest to uke backwards (kinda) and away bring uke down and it would have been done at speed, the camera has caught only the application of nikkyo

OK. Maybe my point is being lost here. When dealing with a boxer he owns all of that territory.

There is nothing you can do that he can't do more quickly and with more damage.

And with an average of 4 punches a second you can't stay in that territory for very long.

He is not vulnerable there. You are. You won't catch his hand it is too quick. You won't parry and walk in to his blind side he is more experienced at negating that. You are entering using the same tools he does except for the ability to out perform the guy.

 

[drop bear]

ok explain your two beat

OK looking at an average of 4 punches a second. Each punch at arms length takes one beat.

So your grab and strike is one beat. In a quarter of a second the next beat is available. So he can hit you in the face.

At which point in that demo both your hands are about at his wrist. Another beat to secure that lock. And that is another punch. By the third beat you have broken his wrist and he has had three shots at you.

And that is if any of those strikes hasn't slipped the arm out. At which point you will need to deal with both hands coming at you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends on the theory I guess. Another theory is you will get hit repeatedly while trying to manipulate the arm. it's a matter of trying to get 3 or 4 movements in before a striker can get one movement in that's faster than any of the ones you are trying to do in sequence. It looks really good when the other guy is co-operating. Good enough to create believers in fact.

That's why theories are useless until they are tested, and you just don't see people winning fights using classical aikido strategy and technique, anywhere. If I'm wrong, show me.

The actual approach is that you don't do the multiple movements until you have an opening for them. So, when a boxer slips a jab to the outside, that's a spot where a grappler can go for grappling - not much risk of strikes coming in, and lots of access to arm, shoulder, head, and maybe back. So it's not trying to get in 3-4 moves while they do one - it's trying to get into position where they can't hit in one move, then preventing them from getting into a better position.

 

[now disabled]

OK. Maybe my point is being lost here. When dealing with a boxer he owns all of that territory.

There is nothing you can do that he can't do more quickly and with more damage.

And with an average of 4 punches a second you can't stay in that territory for very long.

He is not vulnerable there. You are. You won't catch his hand it is too quick. You won't parry and walk in to his blind side he is more experienced at negating that. You are entering using the same tools he does except for the ability to out perform the guy.

No I get your point

Can I ask are you making the assumption that as from most vids the nage is standing still and goes for the first arm thrust at him?

 

[drop bear]

The actual approach is that you don't do the multiple movements until you have an opening for them. So, when a boxer slips a jab to the outside, that's a spot where a grappler can go for grappling - not much risk of strikes coming in, and lots of access to arm, shoulder, head, and maybe back. So it's not trying to get in 3-4 moves while they do one - it's trying to get into position where they can't hit in one move, then preventing them from getting into a better position.

What happens when a boxers jab is slipped in boxing?

 

[now disabled]

I have found a vid and a series of vids on Kuzushi as it is seen in Aikido terms they are demos and slow as they are demos and are drills not techniques

I'll post em if it ain't gonna start an argument or folks saying he not doing it fast or that not gonna stop him lol...

I am only saying this as blending and breaking structure balance have been mentioned and this is how aikido looks at it (kinda but best I could find and in English )

 

[drop bear]

No I get your point

Can I ask are you making the assumption that as from most vids the nage is standing still and goes for the first arm thrust at him?

Nage is not moving fast enough to avoid punches from someone who is specialised in hitting fast moving people.

Same deal as I said to Gpseymor. Get someone who is a lot lighter than you to really go for you. And see what sort of time and space you have to play with.

Because not understanding timing is the bulk of what messes people up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He just did. The two beat movement in one beat space is precisely the issue there.

The principle - I don't see it often in Aikido clips, but every Aikidoka I've talked to seems to know it, so it's taught somewhere along the line - is to break structure at the beginning of the entry, which either shuts down the strikes or slows down their beat (depending how much you manage to break the structure). The corollary is that if you fail to break the structure sufficiently, you don't move into that danger. Aikido (not NGA - we have a slightly different approach) does a decent job of playing at the end of the arm for the beginning of this control, where they can escape fast. The simplest example of this would be you grab my wrist to hold my arm out of the way for your punch (you're holding my left hand down with your left hand, punching with your right). If I can roll my right hand under yours, I can use my one beat (while you're shifting into the punch) to use your arm to put your shoulder (and maybe your arm) between us, to at least reduce the punch's power and accuracy (best case, I can actually shut it down). That buys me another beat. By the end of the first beat, I have a grip on your arm, wrist, or hand (or I've missed and use that beat to escape the killing zone). So my second beat goes to extending your arm down and away while i move to control your head/neck with the other arm. Now I've got options. After the initial interference (which bought me a beat), if anything fails, I change techniques or bail to defensive range. If my first move fails, I got punched, and that's where I started from, anyway.

 

[pdg]

I have found a vid and a series of vids on Kuzushi as it is seen in Aikido terms they are demos and slow as they are demos and are drills not techniques

I'll post em if it ain't gonna start an argument or folks saying he not doing it fast or that not gonna stop him lol...

I am only saying this as blending and breaking structure balance have been mentioned and this is how aikido looks at it (kinda but best I could find and in English )

Post them, or pm me the links

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What happens when a boxers jab is slipped in boxing?

Simplest answer - the boxer changes his angle to respond, get the guy out of his blind spot, probably answers with the other hand. That's assuming the guy who slipped it doesn't get his punch in first and change the beat. If the guy who slipped it had a hand free (damned gloves) to grab with, he'd have other options for slowing that response. Okay, not as many unless dude puts a shirt on (damned sweaty boxer).

 

[drop bear]

The principle - I don't see it often in Aikido clips, but every Aikidoka I've talked to seems to know it, so it's taught somewhere along the line - is to break structure at the beginning of the entry, which either shuts down the strikes or slows down their beat (depending how much you manage to break the structure). The corollary is that if you fail to break the structure sufficiently, you don't move into that danger. Aikido (not NGA - we have a slightly different approach) does a decent job of playing at the end of the arm for the beginning of this control, where they can escape fast. The simplest example of this would be you grab my wrist to hold my arm out of the way for your punch (you're holding my left hand down with your left hand, punching with your right). If I can roll my right hand under yours, I can use my one beat (while you're shifting into the punch) to use your arm to put your shoulder (and maybe your arm) between us, to at least reduce the punch's power and accuracy (best case, I can actually shut it down). That buys me another beat. By the end of the first beat, I have a grip on your arm, wrist, or hand (or I've missed and use that beat to escape the killing zone). So my second beat goes to extending your arm down and away while i move to control your head/neck with the other arm. Now I've got options. After the initial interference (which bought me a beat), if anything fails, I change techniques or bail to defensive range. If my first move fails, I got punched, and that's where I started from, anyway.

If you can enter in hard and get that neck you will get a space. Pretty much everyone who goes this uses covering rather than trapping.

The best example of trapping entering and taking control of that blind side in real time is lomenchenko. And that is why he is rated so highly