Yang Style Tai Chi; is it dead?

[Xue Sheng]

After doing a whole lot of research on Yang style tai chi chuan and Taoism I can say that Tai chi makes a little more sense today because of what I read in Taoism. But that research had the opposite effect from what I expected when it comes to Yang style Tai Chi.

I am more disillusioned and disappointed in Yang style in the 21st century than I was before.

It is the most widely practiced tai chi in the world but that has caused it to become incredibly watered down. Very few that practice it know anything about the martial arts of the Yang family and many do not even know it was considered a martial art. As one gentleman told me “I do not DO martial arts, I do tai Chi”. As if Martial arts was beneath him and tai chi person was superior to that. But then I have also heard a very well trained tai chi sifu, with a good lineage, refer to other martial arts as “lower forms” and “Tai Chi as superior”.

I have seen push hands advertised purely as a Qi Gong with emphasis placed on the fact that it had nothing to do with Martial arts.

Many people doing Yang Tai Chi do not know anything beyond 24, 32 or 48 form Yang style. And they certainly have no idea that there is a fast form, Broad sword forms, straight sword forms, staff forms and a spear form, not to mention the traditional 108 (depending on how you count)

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, practicing their Tai makes them happier and healthier. But all of this is virtually killing Yang style tai chi as a martial art. And to be honest, I am not sure that it isn’t already too late to resurrect Yang style tai chi.

Few practice Yang style as a martial art and of those few fewer still know the actual Yang style martial arts. Many take things they learned in other martial arts and apply it to yang style. This can translates into the use of to much force. As for the use of Qinna, and this surprised me, it depends on what your Yang style teacher’s lineage is. If it comes from Yang Cheng-fu, it is doubtful that they are keeping true to the Yang style of Yang Cheng-fu. Yang Cheng-fu, although incredibly talented and never defeated, removed much of the Qinna. If a teachers lineage goes to Yang Shau-hao (Yang Cheng-fu’s older brother) then the Qinna is still there, but that lineage is far less prevalent than to Yang Cheng-fu.

I wrote this in the hope that I can be proven wrong, I have practiced Yang style for a very long time and I have considered giving up the fight.

What do the other Yang stylist think, Tai Chi people and martial artist’s think?

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

I don't believe it is dead, at least, as long as there are serious people practicing it.

 

[dmax999]

Actually I think it is coming back strongly as a martial art now. When I started learning it ten years ago the only reference to it being a martial art was "At one point Tai Chi was a martial art but in modern society it cannot be considered effective as a way of self defense", and thats all I ever saw of it being a martial art. I was the only one at my first Tai Chi school interested in the fighting aspects (out of over 100 students).

Five years ago I finally learned about peng and fa-jing, requirements to Tai Chi being a martial art. Thats right, five years of reading about it before I found this out, but now its extremely common to know about this thanks to so many Tai Chi references on the internet mostly.

Now instead of everyone trying to convince each other that it is not a martial art there are lots of people trying to get out the fighting aspects. If you want to learn the fighting aspects learn the fighting applications of the movements in the form. Practice the applications against someone so you get the feel and try to incorporate them into push hands. Then change your form practice to match the actual applications, this means doing some movements completely different then you did before and probably differnt then your teacher teaches them.

If you actually learn the applications of the movements and postures you will not be asking the question you did. You will know that Tai Chi is actually one of the most violent MAs out there completely disguised as moving yoga.

 

[Flying Crane]

Too bad you haven't met Bill Chin, here in San Francisco. His group organized the Tai Chi Picnic in Golden Gate Park every year. His Yang is awsome, and I have seen his push hands. He was about 80, and sick, but still did a demonstration of the form that lasted about 40 minutes. In push hands he threw this young guy all over the field for about 15 minutes. that guy is unbelieveable. In the right places, Yang is still strong.

He retired from teaching a couple years ago.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually I think it is coming back strongly as a martial art now. When I started learning it ten years ago the only reference to it being a martial art was "At one point Tai Chi was a martial art but in modern society it cannot be considered effective as a way of self defense", and thats all I ever saw of it being a martial art. I was the only one at my first Tai Chi school interested in the fighting aspects (out of over 100 students).

Five years ago I finally learned about peng and fa-jing, requirements to Tai Chi being a martial art. Thats right, five years of reading about it before I found this out, but now its extremely common to know about this thanks to so many Tai Chi references on the internet mostly.

Now instead of everyone trying to convince each other that it is not a martial art there are lots of people trying to get out the fighting aspects. If you want to learn the fighting aspects learn the fighting applications of the movements in the form. Practice the applications against someone so you get the feel and try to incorporate them into push hands. Then change your form practice to match the actual applications, this means doing some movements completely different then you did before and probably differnt then your teacher teaches them.

If you actually learn the applications of the movements and postures you will not be asking the question you did. You will know that Tai Chi is actually one of the most violent MAs out there completely disguised as moving yoga.

Actually I know a lot of the applications of the movements that I have learned over the years. I have done a lot of push hands as well. And my experience is similar to yours, but it appears to me to be going the other way again I have been in Tai Chi for 14 years, Mainly Yang, some Chen and a little Wu. I learned more about fajing and applications after 2 years in, but I knew they existed and were part of Tai Chi before that. (I'm old).

I have trained push hands against other Tai Chi people. Aikido people and Karate people (Free sparing). I have done tai Chi San Shou as well, as well as long forms, weapons forms and fast forms. I knew Tai Chi was a martial art many many years ago when I first read about it, approximately 30 years ago.

My question comes from see the influx of people that no longer are interested in learning any Tai Chi martial arts.

As for my teacher, he is a student of Tung Ying Chieh who was a student of Yang Cheng-fu and he is very skilled, but even he has seemed to buckle to the pressure of the non martial arts tai chi person. He currently ahs more beginner and intermediate that do not care at all about the martial arts aspect and his senior students are leaving, I am one of the last 3.

So I do have a lot of experience in application, I just see the numbers dwindling of those that want to know anything about Tai Chi martial arts.

And maybe I should have worded the question differently,

Is Yang style Tai Chi dying?

 

[Flying Crane]

My question comes from see the influx of people that no longer are interested in learning any Tai Chi martial arts.

As for my teacher, he is a student of Tung Ying Chieh who was a student of Yang Cheng-fu and he is very skilled, but even he has seemed to buckle to the pressure of the non martial arts tai chi person. He currently ahs more beginner and intermediate that do not care at all about the martial arts aspect and his senior students are leaving, I am one of the last 3.

So I do have a lot of experience in application, I just see the numbers dwindling of those that want to know anything about Tai Chi martial arts.

And maybe I should have worded the question differently,

Is Yang style Tai Chi dying?

I think the problem is that Tai Chi is an effective form of exercise, and that is really what people want. For most, that is enough. It is the rare person who even wants to understand the fighting aspects, much less really develop the skill. My sifu is the same. He is a student of Feng Zhi Qiang in Chen style, but most of his students are people who just want exercise so that is mostly what he teaches and it takes up most of his time. There are only a handful who have an interest in the fighting aspects and since we are so few, it can be hard to get his time to focus on that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think the problem is that Tai Chi is an effective form of exercise, and that is really what people want. For most, that is enough. It is the rare person who even wants to understand the fighting aspects, much less really develop the skill. My sifu is the same. He is a student of Feng Zhi Qiang in Chen style, but most of his students are people who just want exercise so that is mostly what he teaches and it takes up most of his time. There are only a handful who have an interest in the fighting aspects and since we are so few, it can be hard to get his time to focus on that.

That is what most likely what I am seeing, but since I currently see only Yang Style, I base it on Yang.

I did get a chance last fall to basically be the translator’s translator for Chen Zhenglei and I noticed no one in the room asked about application.

This is not only here, my wife's family asked several people in China about my doing or practicing Yang style when I'm there and most said they only teach Yang style for health. Only one, the oldest (about 70) said that he had not done Yang style as a martial art nor push hands for a long time, non of his students were interested in that, but he would enjoy practicing with me when I am there. I suspect I will get tossed around like a rag doll, but maybe I will feel better about Yang style after I recover.

This however leads me to modify the question even further.

Is Yang style (or Tai Chi) dying as a martial art?

 

[East Winds]

Unfortunately Yang style has become so contaminated by the 24, 48, 88 step modern Wushu forms and "made up" rubbish, that I think you are correct. Some of us still teach Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan, in my case via the Yang Zhen Ji lineage. (Back to that old debate again!!!!). Our form relies heavily on the applicablilty of the postures to the applications. If the posture does not work as an application, clearly it is not correct. We also teach Sword (68 forms) and Sabre (13 forms). Tha Yang Family themselves no longer teach spear form. Or at least if they do, it is only to a very few students.

However there as some us keeping the tradition alive.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Unfortunately Yang style has become so contaminated by the 24, 48, 88 step modern Wushu forms and "made up" rubbish, that I think you are correct. Some of us still teach Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan, in my case via the Yang Zhen Ji lineage. (Back to that old debate again!!!!). Our form relies heavily on the applicablilty of the postures to the applications. If the posture does not work as an application, clearly it is not correct. We also teach Sword (68 forms) and Sabre (13 forms). Tha Yang Family themselves no longer teach spear form. Or at least if they do, it is only to a very few students.

However there as some us keeping the tradition alive.

Very best wishes

It is nice to hear some are still keeping the tradition alive. And I will not get into the old debate, I promise.

My teacher was doing very well at keeping the traditions alive, but with in the last 2 years it has become less and less. His lineage, as I have beaten into the ground here, is from the Tung family. This does mean that there are additional forms (2nd fast form and a fast Da Dow form, possibly a second saber form). Master Tung leaned Wu/Hao prior to Yang style and I have read some references to the possibility that he studied with Yang Shou hao prior to Yang Cheng fu.

My Sifu does know the spear form and a staff form, but he has not yet taught it. And I have to agree with his reasoning, there simply is not enough room in the building and they are best taught outside.

I have not yet given up on training with him, but I’m close. As previously mentioned 4 senior students already have. I will continue until the month long break we take every summer and decide then whether or not to return.

Most unfortunately he is for all intensive purposes the only game in town. All others teach competition forms only. I once went to one of these schools that was offering push hands, I left after 2 classes. I do not consider myself overly skilled, but I was going to hurt someone. They had no idea what they were doing and the person teaching was one that I knocked down, by accident. He told me to try and feel what he was doing and respond, I did (for once, and at the wrong time, fajing was automatic). I apologized and had to restrain myself for the rest of the class.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng

I worked for a very short time with a Tung style teacher working on Fast Form and Tung Style Sabre. I enjoyed them very much but have not kept them up. I still have too much to do with Traditional Yang!!!!

It is often said that the Teacher will find the pupil and that was so in my case. I say stick with what you've got. When the time is right the teacher will find you.

I always enjoy your posts

Very best wishes

 

[Dronak]

What do the other Yang stylist think, Tai Chi people and martial artist’s think?

Well, I suspect that at least some of the arts is dying out, if they haven't been lost already. As I recall, there was a tendency to keep the innermost, deepest aspects of the art secret, and teachers would only reveal them to a few, carefully chosen students. If the teachers didn't pass along everything or enough of the secrets, pieces of knowledge are lost. Maybe they could be rediscovered eventually, but it's kind of a shame that they had to be lost in the first place.

You're probably right that the martial aspects of the art are being neglected now that tai chi has risen to common popularity. Most people aren't interested in knowing how to fight using tai chi, they want the exercise it provides to help keep them in good health. I believe the short, standardized forms were created for health/exercise purposes. Things like that, and studies/reports about the health benefits of practicing tai chi, seem to overshadow the original intent of it being a fighting style. Since this seems to be the prevailing view, I imagine that teachers who do know the deep martial secrets of the style are less willing to pass them along, probably for fear of them getting into the wrong (untrustworthy) hands. I can't blame them, of course, but again, it seems a shame that such knowledge gained over centuries may not be passed along for future generations. I'm not sure there is a clear way to turn things around and bring the martial applications up to the same interest level as the health aspects.

Through my books, I've heard of a variety of other aspects of Yang style tai chi, things like sword and spear forms, as well as ball and ruler training. I've read about a few types of push hands and a two person fighting set. I may never learn them (except poorly from books/tapes), but I've at least heard that they exist, in some form. One book goes into a lot of detail about the martial applications of each major posture in the Yang long form, including the chin na locks, felling moves, and pressure point attacks. Another is devoted to jin, describing different types and talking about generating energy. Still there's probably a ton more information that isn't published that I've never heard of.

FWIW, I've learned a long form of Yang tai chi. Our teacher had it numbered out as 99 moves, but comparing it to forms in books and such, it seems to be basically the same as the 108 or 88 versions -- the difference is essentially in how postures are grouped for counting. There are some other differences, like we explicitly close each section back to standing upright, but I don't think they're anything huge. When our teacher taught it, he sometimes referred to applications when he thought they'd help us understand the movements better. While I may not have seen much of them, I've at least been exposed to some of the applications. I also did some work with the shorter, standard forms like the 24 and 48 ones, but since I learned the long form, I've basically forgotten the short ones.

 

[Dronak]

Since we can't edit our posts after a certain period of time, and I just realized I forgot to mention it . . . I believe the Yang style form I learned comes from the Yang Cheng-Fu line. Our teacher rarely mentioned it, so I'm not absolutely certain, but I think that's what he told us.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Since we can't edit our posts after a certain period of time, and I just realized I forgot to mention it . . . I believe the Yang style form I learned comes from the Yang Cheng-Fu line. Our teacher rarely mentioned it, so I'm not absolutely certain, but I think that's what he told us.

Most good teachers do not talk about it much, I found out by asking.

Most Yang style comes from Yang Cheng fu. It is hard to find a teacher that goes back to Yang Shau-hao, he was a harder teacher, could be cruel, like to fight and had fewer students. But those he had were supposedly very good and he did have at least 1 son.

Also my teacher, although he learned from Sifu Tung still says he teaches Yang style. And I have seen Traditional Yang style (108, depending on how you count) done by the current Yang family and it looks almost identical to what I have been taught.

We have or are learning the traditional Yang stuff plus Sifu Tung's additional forms and applications. I do know that the first fast form I learned comes from Yang Cheng Fu, the second one I am suppose to learn comes from Tung Ying Chieh. But I am not sure if both of the Da Dow forms are Traditional Yang or 1 Yang 1 Tung and there are 2 straight sword forms as well. As for push hands I am not sure what I have learned comes from Yang and what comes from Tung, but I suspect most of it comes from Yang; 3 step, 4 corner, stationary 1 hand, stationary 2 hand, etc.

I am beginning to believe that Tung style Tai Chi was named after Tung Ying Chieh died, by his son or grandson but that is a speculation on my part. I will have to talk to my teacher about this sometime.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng
It is often said that the Teacher will find the pupil and that was so in my case. I say stick with what you've got. When the time is right the teacher will find you.

Many moons ago I had a teacher that knew only forms, yang 24, 48, 32 sword, wu competition, Chen competition, sun, wu/hao, several Kung fu/wushu forms. At one point he had me out teaching Yang style at couple of the local YMCAs. I realized while I was teaching that I could not answer all of my student’s questions and the few questions I was asked about application I was answering with my previous jujitsu and non-sport TDK background. I wanted to know more so I went to Boston for a seminar with Yang Jwing Ming on push hands. Shortly after my return I ran into a person I had not seen in about a year and he told me about my current teacher. So your statement is probably correct.

I am beginning to see that if I want to learn more from my teacher, and he does have more to teach me, then I will have to bug the living daylights out of him until he either shows me or kicks me out.

I look at Tai Chi as a martial art that has great health side effects not the "Tai Chi health dance" that many currently seem to think it is. But it is good to know that there are others out there with the same very.

As for my posts, I will try and keep the incessant whining out of future posts.

 

[Yeti]

I wanted to know more so I went to Boston for a seminar with Yang Jwing Ming on push hands.

I'm glad you mentioned Dr. Yang. From what I understand, he is one who certainly does teach Yang Style as a martial art.

 

[Dronak]

Yang Jwing-Ming is also the author of a few of the books I mentioned in my other post. There are three that sort of make a set -- one on the long form, one on the martial applications, and one on jin. I've got all three and like the information in them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm glad you mentioned Dr. Yang. From what I understand, he is one who certainly does teach Yang Style as a martial art.

I recently found out that his lineage, if you will, does not come from Yang Cheng-fu. It comes from Yang Ban-hou, the uncle of Yang Cheng-fu. This would explain why what he does looks more like a martial art and has more, obvious, Qinna and fighting applications. And also why it looks different from the currently accepted Yang family form.

Yang Ban-hou was also the teacher of Yang Shou-hou, Yang Cheng-fu's older brother.

I may just go back and do some studying with Dr Yang.

 

[Dronak]

Hmm. This is kind of interesting. I wonder if the tai chi I learned actually comes from that line then, too. According to one of my teacher's seniors, he, my teacher, and Yang Jwing-Ming come from the same Long Fist lineage. I know that's not a guarantee that their tai chi lineage is the same, but it's possible. I guess it depends on how much tai chi Yang got from the long fist teachers and how much he got from elsewhere.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hmm. This is kind of interesting. I wonder if the tai chi I learned actually comes from that line then, too. According to one of my teacher's seniors, he, my teacher, and Yang Jwing-Ming come from the same Long Fist lineage. I know that's not a guarantee that their tai chi lineage is the same, but it's possible. I guess it depends on how much tai chi Yang got from the long fist teachers and how much he got from elsewhere.

It is possible.

Shortly after I went to the push hands seminar with Dr Yang, and this is about 10 years ago, I meant a guy from Taiwan who I found out did some Tai Chi. I was talking to him about the seminar I went to with Yang, when he told me he learned Tai Chi from the same teacher as Dr Yang and at the same time. He asked me to do push hands and after almost ripping me in two twice he said thank you and ended it. I also found out later that he learned Long Fist in Taiwan as well, but I am not sure if they share the same long fist teacher.

Most unfortunately that was the last time I saw this guy.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I thought about this last night after going to Tai Chi, and I was not going to post anything about it, but I decided to after all.

Just when I felt things were not as bad as I thought they were with the state of Martial arts and Tai chi, this guy shows up agian.

I guess I am getting back on the soap box.

I am generally pretty tolerant of people, believe it or not, but at Tai Chi
I think the epitome of the whole, "Martial Tai Chi is dying" issue is
right in the class with me, the virtual poster boy if you will. He could also tie into the Qi discussion about someone being able to knock you out with your Qi.

I will not go into great detail, but one of the newer intermediate students who claim to have studied Tai Chi for years and Iron Shirt Chi Gong as well is a good example of what is wrong.

The discussions I have had with this guy, are to me, and the greatest example of the problem. These discussion include, His Tai Chi prowess, his Iron Shirt ability, a guy he knows that could freeze you in your steps just by looking at you and he may even be able to kill you, just with his Qi. Other topics have been, Aliens, Government conspiracies (they are responsible for the tsunami you know), curses involving Hawaii, and the power of crystals. I am generally able to extricate myself from these conversations, but it takes awhile.

Also I have seen him doing push hands with other intermediate students and basically bullying them and teaching them entirely wrong. Last night I later noticed he was trying and teach other intermediate student Q Gong and a Tai Chi forms. My Sifu just ignored him, which I think is a bad sign.
I have done push hands with him and frankly if he has studied Iron shirt Q Gong and Tai Chi for many years, I couldn't see it or sense it and he doesn’t ask me to do push hands anymore.

Last nights class did however bring back a memory of a Tai Chi gathering I use to go to near NYC once a year. The first year was good the second year was good, but the third and last year was not. First let me apologize to anyone that is wearing Tie Dye cloths before I continue, but the third year it was loaded with Crystal sales booths and Tie dye sales booths and aroma therapy, hemp clothing sales and basically the hippie cultural stuff of the 60s. It looked more like the 1st Woodstock than a tai chi gathering. They seemed to be more interested in the politics of peace love and tie dye and the justification of selling hemp clothing than martial arts. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but in my opinion it did not belong there. This I should have taken as a sign of things to come.

OK I'm done