Yang Style Tai Chi; is it dead?

[Xue Sheng]

It is often said that the Teacher will find the pupil and that was so in my case. I say stick with what you've got. When the time is right the teacher will find you.

Been awhile since this thread was active, but I wanted to say;

You may be right, although it is not tai chi, I recently, today actually, spoke with someone near me that teaches Xingyi and I had given up on Xingyi of substance being taught anywhere close to me.

This teacher teaches standing training first, no form no applications, standing. This is also why he has few Xingyi students, to traditional...and possibly just what I am looking for in Xingyi.

I start the end of the month, I’m a beginner again and I am happy about it.

 

[Dronak]

That's good to hear. I'm glad you were able to find the kind of teacher you were looking for. Good luck with the Xingyi training/practice.

 

[CrushingFist]

After doing a whole lot of research on Yang style tai chi chuan and Taoism I can say that Tai chi makes a little more sense today because of what I read in Taoism. But that research had the opposite effect from what I expected when it comes to Yang style Tai Chi.

I am more disillusioned and disappointed in Yang style in the 21st century than I was before.

It is the most widely practiced tai chi in the world but that has caused it to become incredibly watered down. Very few that practice it know anything about the martial arts of the Yang family and many do not even know it was considered a martial art. As one gentleman told me “I do not DO martial arts, I do tai Chi”. As if Martial arts was beneath him and tai chi person was superior to that. But then I have also heard a very well trained tai chi sifu, with a good lineage, refer to other martial arts as “lower forms” and “Tai Chi as superior”.

I have seen push hands advertised purely as a Qi Gong with emphasis placed on the fact that it had nothing to do with Martial arts.

Many people doing Yang Tai Chi do not know anything beyond 24, 32 or 48 form Yang style. And they certainly have no idea that there is a fast form, Broad sword forms, straight sword forms, staff forms and a spear form, not to mention the traditional 108 (depending on how you count)

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, practicing their Tai makes them happier and healthier. But all of this is virtually killing Yang style tai chi as a martial art. And to be honest, I am not sure that it isn’t already too late to resurrect Yang style tai chi.

Few practice Yang style as a martial art and of those few fewer still know the actual Yang style martial arts. Many take things they learned in other martial arts and apply it to yang style. This can translates into the use of to much force. As for the use of Qinna, and this surprised me, it depends on what your Yang style teacher’s lineage is. If it comes from Yang Cheng-fu, it is doubtful that they are keeping true to the Yang style of Yang Cheng-fu. Yang Cheng-fu, although incredibly talented and never defeated, removed much of the Qinna. If a teachers lineage goes to Yang Shau-hao (Yang Cheng-fu’s older brother) then the Qinna is still there, but that lineage is far less prevalent than to Yang Cheng-fu.

I wrote this in the hope that I can be proven wrong, I have practiced Yang style for a very long time and I have considered giving up the fight.

What do the other Yang stylist think, Tai Chi people and martial artist’s think?

Great Post man ... I'm with you

How about that lineage ... By the way I'm reading this article its so good http://aymta.org/home/journal/zqlpt1.html

 

[Xue Sheng]

Great Post man ... I'm with you



How about that lineage ... By the way I'm reading this article its so good http://aymta.org/home/journal/zqlpt1.html

I would expect that this traditional Yang Tai Chi form would look a little different than the current Yang style practiced by Yang Zhen Duo, but I do not think it would be all that different. Yang Jianhou changed his father's (Yang Luchan) form a bit and Yang Chengfu changed his father's (Yang Jianhou) form more.

As for the Yangjia Michuan it looks very different from the Yang of Yang Zhen Duo

Actually the one I am looking for comes from Yang Panhou (aka Yang Binhou) or this is the brother of Yang Jianhou and the uncle of Yang Chengfu and most likely the primary teacher of Yang Cheng Fu's older brother Yang Shaohou.

I may have found it in Boston, but I cannot get there until I return from China.

 

[CrushingFist]

GoodLUck ... How's China ? Where are you . What ya doing over there

 

[Xue Sheng]

GoodLUck ... How's China ? Where are you . What ya doing over there

I'm not there yet, I will be going in a couple months and I will be visiting in-laws.

Boston will not happen until June or February

 

[CrushingFist]

Oh true, I was going to say you have time to go online in China LOL

June 2006 and Feb 2007 ?

 

[Gaoguy]

I would go to Mr. Yang for chang chuan or bai-he. Taiji? Not so much. BTW I think he's moving to Hawaii soon.

 

[Flying Crane]

These discussion include, His Tai Chi prowess, his Iron Shirt ability, a guy he knows that could freeze you in your steps just by looking at you and he may even be able to kill you, just with his Qi. Other topics have been, Aliens, Government conspiracies (they are responsible for the tsunami you know), curses involving Hawaii, and the power of crystals.

I had a kid once tell me that his friend did the Death Touch on him. I suggested that perhaps his friend wasn't very good at it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I had a kid once tell me that his friend did the Death Touch on him. I suggested that perhaps his friend wasn't very good at it.

So as I sit here laughing in front of my computer and looking at my wife who thinks I have gone crazy.

This is so funny it hurts...don't do this to me.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would go to Mr. Yang for chang chuan or bai-he. Taiji? Not so much. BTW I think he's moving to Hawaii soon.

Now that I have stopped laughing at the death touch comment..

Which Mr Yang is moving to Hawaii? Yang Zhen Duo?

 

[Gaoguy]

Yang Jwingming

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yang Jwingming

Actually I know he has something set up in California, but I did not hear about Hawaii.

As for studying Yang style with him, his Yang lineage does not go to Yang Chengfu, it goes to Yang Binhou and to be honest, I am so tired of the excepted Traditional Yang form and all the baggage that is now coming with it, anything would be a welcome change.

And at least the martial arts are still intact, although I do see some kung fu in his Tai Chi but he is basically a White Crane guy after all.

I would chuck it all and go Chen if a good Chen guy was near where I lived and who knows I may just go back to Xingyi and stay there now that I may have a teacher.

And to be entirely honest here, I am getting fairly tired of the whole internal martial arts issues that popup with the charlatans, the spirituality seekers and the new age people that Xingyi may be the better choice. Xingyi currently seems less vulnerable do to its lack of pretty moves and harder internal training in the beginning and the look that it may actually be for combat. True Tai Chi is all but gone and I fear for Bagua too.

Prior to finding the possible Xingyi teacher I had considered giving it all up and going to check out the Jeet kun do school that opened up near me, but that would be a major change from what I currently train and have trained for the last 15 years.

But the reality is I have been in Yang style Tai Chi for almost 15 years and I will probably stick with it, but while I can, I will study with Dr Yang, I have studied push hands with him in the past and I was fairly impressed by his ability, particularly his Qin Na skill.

And it all comes down to a matter of personnel opinion after all.

 

[pete]

Actually I know he has something set up in California, but I did not hear about Hawaii.

it is california, in the redwoods area where 'return of the jedi' was filmed. dr yang has world wide seminars through 2006, but i do not know what lies beyond that, although i've heard he intends to return to boston periodically. here is his web site: http://www.ymaaschool.com/training/seminars/world/world.php

I am getting fairly tired of the whole internal martial arts issues that popup with the charlatans, the spirituality seekers and the new age people that Xingyi may be the better choice. Xingyi currently seems less vulnerable do to its lack of pretty moves and harder internal training in the beginning and the look that it may actually be for combat. True Tai Chi is all but gone and I fear for Bagua too.

my bagua teacher says tai chi is calculus, bagua is geometry, and xingyi is business math. i have yet to explore xingyi, but will do so eventually.

all is not lost... you just have to look in the right places! dr yang is one of those places, but he is hardly the only place.

the crux of the problem is that the internal arts are counter-intuitive and require not only dedicated training, but a sense of trust and perserverance in the system and your instructor. blended with today's world of immediate gratification and limitless options and, well, people just want to be lied to. so some instructors will lie to their students by removing the essence of the art and teach them how to wave their arms about, or replace the difficult nature of fighting within the internal arts paradigm with more direct techniques from a shaolin or even japanese style.

the truth is out there...

pete

 

[Flying Crane]

So as I sit here laughing in front of my computer and looking at my wife who thinks I have gone crazy.

This is so funny it hurts...don't do this to me.

Thought you'd appreciate that one.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Our tai chi instructor knows the Yang long, the broadsword and straight sword forms and a couple others he hasn't gotten around to teaching yet. I think there are many talented Yang instructors out there who are keeping the art alive.

On t'other hand, isn't an art only truly dead if it no longer develops and grows? Tai Chi in general seems (in the you ess of ay, at any rate) to be moving away from the loooooong forms and into the shorter forms that can be learned in a year and practiced in ten minutes. The new Yang in 8 form is evidence that the Yang style is still growing and changing, and thus very much alive.

Whether or not the changes are for the best, or congruent with your (or my) personal tastes and preferences is an entirely different matter. But dead? Naw.

 

[Xue Sheng]

my bagua teacher says tai chi is calculus, bagua is geometry, and xingyi is business math. i have yet to explore xingyi, but will do so eventually.

all is not lost... you just have to look in the right places! dr yang is one of those places, but he is hardly the only place.

the crux of the problem is that the internal arts are counter-intuitive and require not only dedicated training, but a sense of trust and perserverance in the system and your instructor. blended with today's world of immediate gratification and limitless options and, well, people just want to be lied to. so some instructors will lie to their students by removing the essence of the art and teach them how to wave their arms about, or replace the difficult nature of fighting within the internal arts paradigm with more direct techniques from a shaolin or even japanese style.

the truth is out there...

pete

I have heard it said in a similar way, you start with Xingyi you then go to bagua and end with Tai Chi.

I agree with what you are saying. And I do not know if you have read any of my other rants about tai chi, but the crux of my problem is that my long time teacher, who is very skilled and very well trained and has a very good lineage changed. He use to train tai chi for martial arts in his intermediate /advanced class and his beginner class if you wanted the only the health stuff you stayed there.

The intermediate/advanced class was always smaller than the beginner but within the last 2 years he has moved a lot of people to my class who have no interest in Push hands or martial arts and are applying outside philosophies to it and forcing the discontinuation of push hands and marital applications. He is allowing this to happen and after loosing 50% or greater of his senior students ( I am one of the last 3 and I know one other is considering leaving as well) and after repeated discussions with him about this and his statements that he will continue to teacher MA in Tai Chi, it gets only worse. So after much thinking I have decided to no longer go to his class. He now has only 2 senior students.

And he is only 1 of 2 people in my area that is this skilled. The other may or may not be in the area any longer and does not tell anyone of his skill. I ran into him once many years ago and I can not locate him now. So off to Boston I go. When I first went to Dr Yang he was my 2nd teacher and I stopped going to him when I found my 3rd and current teacher that I just left. My 1st teacher was a wushu guy.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thought you'd appreciate that one.

I did, although my wife still thinks I'm crazy, but that may or may not have anything to do with the laughing in front of the computer incident.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Our tai chi instructor knows the Yang long, the broadsword and straight sword forms and a couple others he hasn't gotten around to teaching yet. I think there are many talented Yang instructors out there who are keeping the art alive.

On t'other hand, isn't an art only truly dead if it no longer develops and grows? Tai Chi in general seems (in the you ess of ay, at any rate) to be moving away from the loooooong forms and into the shorter forms that can be learned in a year and practiced in ten minutes. The new Yang in 8 form is evidence that the Yang style is still growing and changing, and thus very much alive.

Whether or not the changes are for the best, or congruent with your (or my) personal tastes and preferences is an entirely different matter. But dead? Naw.

Actually my main concern is that it is dead as a martial art.

And I have no problem with any other shortening or changing of the form if the martial arts remain intact, but they do not in most cases. Also to learn the depth of Tai Chi as a martial art or for health or that matter takes years not minutes. And in Yang style, which I do (there are Tung influences by the way in my style) there is a long form, short fast form, sort sword form. Long fast sword form, long saber form and a shorter saber form a staff form and a spear form Stationary Push Hands, 3 step push hands, four corner push hands and freestyle push hands.
I do not consider any shortened forms such as 24 or 48, although I do know them, as Tai Chi for martial arts, although there are martial applications there. However I believe you would be hard pressed to find someone that taught 24 or 48 that knew real Tai Chi applications.

So I guess I could say Tai Chi is not dead, but I do feel it has changed for the worse if your goal is the whole package, including the martial arts.

 

[Flying Crane]

I did, although my wife still thinks I'm crazy, but that may or may not have anything to do with the laughing in front of the computer incident.

Not to hijack the thread here, but it is just amazing what people say sometimes. If they would just stop for a moment and think about what they are saying before they say it, it would be so much better.

But like they say: It is better to let the world think that you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt...