A Western Attitude?

[Zealot]

I have recently started teaching again. My school encompasses the teachings of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and Mugai Ryu Iaido. I have been studying since I was 10 and after my time in the military, I lived as an Uchi Deshi for a number of years. All of my training has been taught to me in a very classical way. I dont know if it is because I grew up in the UK's school system, being originally from Scotland, or if it was the sense of personal honor that my grandparents raised me with; but it seemed natural to learn this way. Ok now on with my rant/plea for opinions.

As I said I recently opened my school here in the US. So far my school numbers about 20 and the Senpei/Kohei relationships are starting out swimmingly. The Senpei students, being the 3 individuals I used to teach privately at the University. Some of the biggest questions I get with new students are these, "When do i get a new belt?, Why do I have to listen to another student? Why do we have to spend 2 months learning how to fall? and Why do I have to learn history?" It was disturbing to find that within the first 3 months students came and went because they wanted to earn a belt or turn into Steven Segal in a matter of a week. The idea that you had to learn the correct etiquette to approach the mat, and to approach the Kamidana, is understandably foreign. I try to explain that it is through discipline that we learn respect and through respect we grow as people. I had one student that actually got upset and left because he didnt want to learn how to fold his Hakama. Since I am not teaching for the money, its not a situation that breaks me heart at all. I do regret the lack of opportunity to try to open the individual's eyes.

its seems to me like a number of people come into training thinking that there is a set number of days before they should get a belt or a ranking. The majority think that they are going o walk into the dojo and begin swinging and blade within 30 seconds. I have to teach them the proper handling and the respect that comes with wielding a blade. I try to teach that the reason for learning how to fall properly, is to save you hospital visits in the future. I dont put it so crass but you get the gist. I find this somewhat puzzling, the lack of patience. To wield a blade you need to quiet your mind. To face an opponent across the battlefield you need a stillness of heart. Its becoming increasingly evident that some do not aspire to work towards that.

My question is to those of you who share this forum with me, is this a common theme? Is the western culture at he point that students want to walk into a dojo and pick and choose menu items like they are at McDonalds? I explained to one potential student that advancement depends on how much you put into it and no you dont start off swinging a sword. I refuse to lower standards, my Shihan explained to me that everything I did, from the way I conducted myself in public, to the condition of my equipment reflected on him and through him a long line of instructors back through the ages. I worked years to EARN the right to pass on my knowledge. I dont know if I am being stubborn on this and if I must adjust my ways of thinking. I am worried about having a student that would insult not only myself but the memory of my Shihan and those before him. Ok I believe I am rambling. Feel free to give me your opinions, I am always looking for another way of thinking to direct me on my path to enlightenment.

Thanks.

 

[Sukerkin]

Your core philosophy has little to fault it, good sir. Koryu sword arts, or their equivalent for non-Japanese arts are not for everyone. There is a requirement of patience and, as you referred to, stillness of spirit when it comes to swinging a three foot razor around. If you are teaching because you wish to pass on what you have learned, rather than make money, which is the correct basis for any school in my opinion, then just accept the good students that come your way and shape them to be good examples of your art. The rest do not matter for, as the old saying goes, they need the art more than the art needs them.

 

[jks9199]

It's a very modern attitude, and it's not limited to the martial arts. In the martial arts -- they're used to what they've seen on TV and in the heavily commercialized schools... Y'know, the places that have added a dozen belts. I see it professionally all the time... People with no respect for seniority or earned privilege, who'll call off sick if they're denied leave, and so on. That mindset of earning something has been lost; it's been replaced by the idea that simply showing up means you deserve something and are entitled to it.

Doesn't seem like those are the students you want, though... Yeah, you should look at how you're presenting some of that stuff (can you spread the history out over more time? Explain the reason for the etiquette rather than just doing it, maybe) but don't assume it's broken, either.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The JSA tend to have a 95% drop out rate within the first year for new students. Most realise simply it's not for them and move on, some believe they are going to be modern samurai and come in with a fantasy that is quicky eroded through hours and hours of what is essentially boring practice to many. Many of the Japanese i speak to tell similar stories over there, so we are not unique in the west.

If we get 1 or 2 students a year who hang about and become seniors, we figure we are doing well.

 

[Zealot]

I guess I was just lucky when I was training. I was hungry to learn and devoured everything that was given to me. I remember the look on one of my students face when I explained to him that before my Shihan would let me handle a sword, I had to take fan dancing classes. I told them about him thinking I was too big and too ungainly because I was western. It shocked them even more when I told them I actually took the classes instead of giving up. Im used to a small group of people learning together and growing closer because of the experience. I am not used to people that are not motivated to learn to attempt the classes anyway. I do think that some of the people that attend think they are going to become like Hollywood Samurai. My first school I had only 8 students and they never missed a class and worked hard to achieve their ranking. I must have been blessed. Those 8 students of mine still talk to me and they kept in touch with each other and continued their training even after I left.

 

[Ironcrane]

There was a period of time when I was responsible for teaching some classes, and had a very hard time with students actively resisting me when I was trying to teach. Sometimes it got to the point where I had to get help from some of the staff (This was at a community center) to remove some of these people. I also remember another thing that happened when I was in medical school, when one of the other students was complaining about having to listen to the teacher. Her exact words were "Why do I have to listen to you, I'm older then you are?"

This attitude isn't something I've seen very often, but when it has happened, it came in groups. I'm not sure where people get this sort of thing from. Does it really have something to do with what they see on tv? How people get so offended by things like what you described is something I can't wrap my head around.
But I think that part of this might come from naive expectations about what they're learning, and their money. The attitude of ' I am paying you money, so I should be getting this, this, and this, within this certain amount of time.'
This might be ok when you're ordering fast food, or having merchandise mailed to you. But it doesn't really work for things like learning martial arts, or how to play a musical insturment.

 

[Jenna]

I think you are exactly right in your traditional stance and in your pedagogies. I would say that with a caveat. I think that you must stick to your core values. Do not promote any quicker than you should. Do not let students wield weapons before they have completed a suitable apprenticeship, and insist on etiquette, including your dojo standards of conduct, dress and address.

HOWEVER... I would suggest that rather than slackening your standards, that you make a series of "concessions" to cater for your audience. Please do not misunderstand, I would do these paying strict attention to your core values as above. Yet, I would suggest that you at least let new students see or feel a blade, demonstrate to them or have your seniors demonstrate the cutting ability. Anything to satisfy their initial curiosity. Remember new students are like children here. Instead of telling my son when he was young NOT to touch sharp knives, I demonstrated to him on all kinds of vegetables, just how sharp the blade was as I know he would want to do what he could not otherwise do.

Likewise, if you state to your potential students that you are inviting more of an uchi-deshi-modelled aprenticeship (even if that is not strictly true) then perhaps it will engender a more proper attitude among those potential students and will quickly slough off those that are not minded towards it.

So, concessions, yes and but dilution of your core values, absolutely not. This is simply a few suggestions on adaptibility. I like the sound of your teaching and I wish you well, please post of your progress.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Not everyone wants the same thing out of martial arts training. There is nothing inherently wrong with them wanting something other than what you teach, in the manner you teach it. They may have unrealistic ideas about what training involves or how rapidly they will see tangible results, but there is neither harm nor fault in a student wanting to learn one aspect of an art and having little interest in another.

Likewise, there is nothing inherently wrong with a person teaching the way they choose to teach. Your way is what is best for you, and the students you retain will naturally have more of an interest in what you have to teach than those who leave.

Personally, I would be glad and to my best to encourage people to leave if that is their desire, and wish them well on their journey. Since you do not teach for profit, but for the love of the art, the sooner you can relieve yourself of those who are not interested in your method of teaching, the better. And the better for those students, who from their own point of view are wasting both their time and yours.

Fast-food restaurants and fine dining both exist for valid reasons. Not everyone wants the same thing, and it's not wrong to not all want the same thing.

I respect what you are teaching, and I think it's awesome. I learn in a traditional Okinawan-style dojo myself, but we don't take it to extremes. Other dojos I am aware of are more laid-back and 'Americanized' and that's fine too. For myself, I have no trouble taking instruction from a person my junior in years; I started training quite late in life. I respect them as my teachers, though they be 20 years younger than me. On the other hand, I'm not going to move to Japan at age 50 and live in a dojo and chop wood and carry water for three years before I can be allowed to touch a bo staff. I'm too old for that stuff.

 

[decepticon]

Your experience unfortunately highlights something that I see more and more of among people of all ages but especially among those younger than me. American schools frequently teach self esteem to the students and foster the idea that just because they are alive and breathing, they deserve anything they want in life. There has been a significant decrease in the number of competitions and awards in schools, replaced instead with events where all participants - the mediocre and the excellent - receive the same recognition so that there won't be any hurt feelings and decrease in self esteem.

It is considered mean to openly acknowledge that we are not all created with equal skills and abilities. It is thought to be unreasonable to expect anyone to work hard to attain a goal. And horror of horrors, to consider the possibility that some people just won't be able to attain the goal ever. In my experience as a public school teacher, the plan was to make students feel that they were all deserving of whatever they wanted and that it should be provided to all equally regardless of effort or ability. Which was a major reason why I left the teaching world. Add this to society's general desire for immediate gratification and desire for the path of least resistance and you have a recipe that is not conducive for the traditional transmission of martial arts. That doesn't mean that you are in any way wrong or that what you have to offer is not valuable and important.

I really like Jenna's comment about satisfying the students' curiosity and enabling them to get a concrete feel for their goals. We live in a time filled with so many false teachers that a little authenticity goes a long way toward reassuring students that the path is real and the goal worthwhile.

 

[pgsmith]

In regards to teaching traditional Japanese arts, I really like this article written by Dave Lowry. It goes a long way toward explaining the attitude often encountered in the traditional Japanese arts, and is required reading for anyone that wishes to join our class. ... So You Want to Join the Ryu?

There are lots of people in the world, but there are very few that I actually want in our class taking up valuable time. Any that come in that don't really want to be there are politely but firmly advised to seek another art.

Who did you learn Mugai ryu from? Did your branch grant ranks or menkyo? I am curious as I practice Mugai ryu also, and did not know of anyone teaching it in Mississippi.

It is considered mean to openly acknowledge that we are not all created with equal skills and abilities. It is thought to be unreasonable to expect anyone to work hard to attain a goal. And horror of horrors, to consider the possibility that some people just won't be able to attain the goal ever. In my experience as a public school teacher, the plan was to make students feel that they were all deserving of whatever they wanted and that it should be provided to all equally regardless of effort or ability.

That is a very real problem in today's American society, in my opinion. When I was Scoutmaster, we had a lot of competitions between patrols in the Troop, and so a lot of complaining parents who's kids were upset that they lost. As I always explained to the parents, as well as the Scouts, it is impossible to be a winner without somebody losing. Winning teaches a person how to strive harder to reach their goals, and losing teaches a person how to deal with life's disappointments. I would explain that in teaching their children how to be winners, they first had to learn how to lose. I am afraid that too many of today's youth do not know how to lose, and so will have problems throughout their lives. But, that's an entirely different thread.

 

[Steve]

I think that this is a lot of self satisfied smuggery (I took an adjective and turned it into a noun primarily for my friends in the UK, 'cause I know you like it! )

Kids aren't afraid of hard work. Americans or Westerners in general are not averse to learning things that are difficult. Reading the OP, a couple of things came to mind. One, Bill addressed very well. People train in Martial Arts for many different reasons. While your school might not be the right fit for a casual student, that doesn't mean your approach is "right" and that these casual students are "wrong."

To add to the above point, your approach is right for you. You've trained in a system you enjoy and value. You believe there is merit to both the techniques and the method of instruction. Fine. That's great. Does everyone in Asia train in your system? Do all Asians train as you have trained?

The reality is that there is a very small percentage of students who train, even in Asia. If there's any difference at all, I'd guess that it's in expectations. In Asia, there may be a more realistic expectation going into the school for the first time. In America, the style is foreign and the reputation is largely overblown by Martial Arts films, both from Hollywood and Hong Kong.

 

[Jenna]

I think that this is a lot of self satisfied smuggery (I took an adjective and turned it into a noun primarily for my friends in the UK, 'cause I know you like it! )

Kids aren't afraid of hard work. Americans or Westerners in general are not averse to learning things that are difficult. Reading the OP, a couple of things came to mind. One, Bill addressed very well. People train in Martial Arts for many different reasons. While your school might not be the right fit for a casual student, that doesn't mean your approach is "right" and that these casual students are "wrong."

To add to the above point, your approach is right for you. You've trained in a system you enjoy and value. You believe there is merit to both the techniques and the method of instruction. Fine. That's great. Does everyone in Asia train in your system? Do all Asians train as you have trained?

The reality is that there is a very small percentage of students who train, even in Asia. If there's any difference at all, I'd guess that it's in expectations. In Asia, there may be a more realistic expectation going into the school for the first time. In America, the style is foreign and the reputation is largely overblown by Martial Arts films, both from Hollywood and Hong Kong.

Steve, you sound upset (or that is how your post reads) ?

The OP studies and teaches Daito Ryu and Mugai Ryu, both hugely traditional Japanese systems and also he has lived himself in the uchi deshi manner and wishes to pass on this methodology of formal training to those students willing to train that way. why do you think that is wrong or to teach that way is smug? If it is wrong to adopt Japanese formality and etiquettes having followed a Japanese art then I too am smug I think? It is not done this way to be disparaging of other styles, it is simply how it has been taught to us and to our teachers before. As he has said, it is not for everyone and that is ok too, no one style or didactic suits everyone. That is why there are many styles and styles of teaching within those styles. Yet to stand by traditional methods of teaching I do not think is smug?

 

[Steve]

Steve, you sound upset (or that is how your post reads) ?

The OP studies and teaches Daito Ryu and Mugai Ryu, both hugely traditional Japanese systems and also he has lived himself in the uchi deshi manner and wishes to pass on this methodology of formal training to those students willing to train that way. why do you think that is wrong or to teach that way is smug? If it is wrong to adopt Japanese formality and etiquettes having followed a Japanese art then I too am smug I think? It is not done this way to be disparaging of other styles, it is simply how it has been taught to us and to our teachers before. As he has said, it is not for everyone and that is ok too, no one style or didactic suits everyone. That is why there are many styles and styles of teaching within those styles. Yet to stand by traditional methods of teaching I do not think is smug?

Not upset. Sorry if I came off that way. I have been posting in bursts of about 2 minutes, so I'm trying to cram a lot into posts. Sorry to everyone if I sound terse, but the editor has been given a vacation! Not my intentions.

It is in no way smug to want to pass on valued traditions. It IS smug (IN MY OPINION) to presume that because others don't appreciate or value your traditions, it's due to a flaw in their character.

The entire tone of the thread is essentially another "What's wrong with kids these days?" The presumption is that something is wrong. Is it because we're Western? Is it because we just don't understand? Is it because kids these days are lazy and undisciplined? Well... maybe. But it's also possible that we understand and simply value other things. Maybe kids are focusing on other things, like learning to play the piano, the violin, football, soccer, or hell, even Halo.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Steve, you sound upset (or that is how your post reads) ?

The OP studies and teaches Daito Ryu and Mugai Ryu, both hugely traditional Japanese systems and also he has lived himself in the uchi deshi manner and wishes to pass on this methodology of formal training to those students willing to train that way. why do you think that is wrong or to teach that way is smug? If it is wrong to adopt Japanese formality and etiquettes having followed a Japanese art then I too am smug I think? It is not done this way to be disparaging of other styles, it is simply how it has been taught to us and to our teachers before. As he has said, it is not for everyone and that is ok too, no one style or didactic suits everyone. That is why there are many styles and styles of teaching within those styles. Yet to stand by traditional methods of teaching I do not think is smug?

I can't speak for Steve, but I have to agree with him. The O/P actually does not say "it is not for everyone and that is ok too" in fact he grouses about the fact that some of his new students wish to "walk into a dojo and pick and choose menu items like they are at McDonalds."

My response was that yes, there are those who want the training experience he offers, and those that do not, and (as you said, but he did not) there is nothing wrong with either desire.

Martial arts training exists along a continuum, from the strip-mall 'karate' of no particular ryu to the near-discipleship of certain groups. From no-kata, no-Japanese to damned near toddling around in clogs and speaking English with a broken accent (and yes, I know of a young man born and raised in Michigan, who now speaks English as if he was raised in China, though he's never been farther from home than Chicago). It's all just fine if that's what you want to teach, and if that's what you want to learn.

I suspect that the more, shall we say, esoteric arts such as sword work tend to attract a certain type, and I would not doubt that people who have seen too many martial arts movies are among them. Some learn that it is not at all what they expected and move on, others fall in love with what it really is and stay. If what they *really* want to do is swing a sword at people, the SCA beckons.

We've had discussions / arguments here about people who refuse to bow when entering a dojo and call their Sensei by his first name. It seems one of the first questions any student asks when they start any form of training is "how long until I get my black belt?" Hey, it's horses for courses.

I'll bet fencing instructors get students who think they're Captain Jack Sparrow, too. The reality of fencing is both more and less exciting than that; but whether a pirate-movie fan will choose to stick around for it is another question.

 

[jks9199]

In regards to teaching traditional Japanese arts, I really like this article written by Dave Lowry. It goes a long way toward explaining the attitude often encountered in the traditional Japanese arts, and is required reading for anyone that wishes to join our class. ... So You Want to Join the Ryu?

There are lots of people in the world, but there are very few that I actually want in our class taking up valuable time. Any that come in that don't really want to be there are politely but firmly advised to seek another art.

That's the one I was looking for in another thread! Thanks!

 

[Zealot]

As for smug, I worked a long time to divorce myself of ego. I would like to thank Jenna for the advice, I believe your concessions are a brilliant way of giving. As for me assuming that all westerners have a bad attitude, I meant no offense to anyone. Your path is your path, whether you walk crawl, or cartwheel along it is your business. I was told by a friend of mine here, that "kids" are different than they were when I was young. I was merely saying respect is not a sometimes thing, its an all time thing. When I made reference to McDonalds, I was trying to say that in a highly traditional school, training is done in steps. Each step takes you further down the path. The system is set up to teach discipline and the core values associated with dedication to the art. I apologize if I come across as smug, or ego serving, but truly personally I mean anything I post in no way.

P.S. When I served as a deshi I didnt have to chop wood and haul water. I raked and swept, but I received training everyday. Oh and I didnt learn Mugai Ryu in the states, and we have an international ranking system but I still had to have an okuiri and had to earn my menkyo to instruct.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

P.S. When I served as a deshi I didnt have to chop wood and haul water. I raked and swept, but I received training everyday.

By this, I referred to the traditional discipleship of the relationship, particularly between sempai and kohai. I respect the choices you have made, but to be quite honest, I'm too old for that noise. I won't be sitting zazen pondering the sound of one hand clapping or playing a wood flute while I wander the desert in search of meaning, either. I work for a living.

I haven't divorced myself from ego. I don't really have any intention of doing so, either. I'm a Westerner; loud, obnoxious, and otherwise gaijin, with all that implies.

I study a traditional Okinawan style, and I'm pleased that I'm not too many generations down from the founder, and that we try to perform our kata and techniques the way our founder taught them. If we are different at all, it's not intentional, nor is it because we think we have any better ideas than the founder did.

Others, however, are just as pleased to learn in a less traditional manner, or to modify the material to their liking, and if that is either better or worse in terms of effectiveness, that's their business.

I try to learn the appropriate Japanese words for things, and I try to honor the system I am learning by being polite and respectful. However, I was stationed in Okinawa for some time back in the 1980's, and I do know some little bit about Okinawa. One of the things I know is this; I am not Japanese. Nor am I Okinawan.

Okinawans and Japanese do not lecture me on the virtues of being Japanese or Okinawan or criticize my 'Western Attitude', even if they think it is a virtue to be from the East. Westerners who somehow think they have escaped being gaijin sometimes do, though...

Do I behave in a boorish Western manner? Seems appropriate; I am an American.

Western Attitude? I has it.

 

[Langenschwert]

It's not so much a Western attitude as a universal, "modern" one. You find that everywhere these days, even in Japan. Young Japanese people today aren't even accustomed to sitting in seiza like their parents and grandparents were. And koryu arts are not practiced there like they once were.

Traditional MA training isn't for everyone. The turnover is likely to be high. It is in every sword art, that's just the way it is. I sometimes lose people to the SCA (maybe one a year) and that's OK. More power to 'em. That being said, I have yet to have any knight wanna-be's show up at class. They mostly knew what the deal was from the get go... we warm up, drill, wrestle, and fence every class. It's hard work, and it hurts sometimes. The guys who expected that they were going to be "lord or lady so and so" are disabused of such notions in short order... usually when they realize that having someone in really good side control on top of you is surprisingly uncomfortable. Those who wanted a ficticious lordly title go elsewhere quickly.

To the OP, realize that high turnover is the norm in sword arts, and that's OK. Be upfront and honest about how you structure things, and emphasize your traditional approach. That way those that enter the dojo already know what it's all about and least know what to expect.

Running a school is never easy. Don't get stressed about it. It is what it is.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Zealot]

Its the differences that bring us together. just by studying a system doesnt at all mean that you should walk around in Geta and eat popcorn with chop sticks. After Somalia and Iraq my head was doing spins and for me training went hand in hand with the spirituality. I have now found my center and live my life accordingly. Dont get me wrong I dont walk around spouting fortune cookie sayings and talking in Broken English. Everyone's road is different and if everyone was the same or we forced the world to be the same, it would be boring, like Euro Disney. I have not given up my self identity but rather celebrate it while throwing people around a mat and practicing with a meter long razor.

 

[Steve]

To be clear, that things change is a given. I think we all agree that times, they are a changin'. Cue the harmonica solo.

But let's not confuse nostalgia with value. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's better or even good. Certainly doesn't mean it's worse or bad, either. The only thing we know for sure is that it is old.

Yes, things moved slower. Even 20 years ago, things moved slower. If you see value in slowing down and training in a manner that is reminiscent of decades or centuries gone by, please have at it. Once again, this is great, if it's great for you. I see a lot of value in preserving traditions. I think it's great when Americans identify with their ancestors' cultures and value their traditions.

I'm very interested and excited to see what my kids' generation is going to be like as adults. They were born plugged in. They have access to so much information and are hardwired into it. I think they'll have a much less difficult time sifting through and filtering out the chaff than my generation does. We get distracted by the shiny buttons, but my kids can focus on things for hours.

But again, don't confuse what is right for you with what is right for all. This is where the smuggery comes in (smuggery rhymes with...). I believe you when you say you've worked to divorce yourself from ego and I completely understand if there was some mis-communication in the original post, but frankly, the post itself reeks of judgement and ego to me, where you are simply complaining about who you deem to be low quality, low potential students coming into your studio.

Sounds like a very interesting school, and I applaud you for refusing to lower your standards. Ultimately, I'm confident that you will find like-minded individuals who are not afraid of hard work and will appreciate the discipline and rigidity of your curriculum, as well as the reverence for tradition and history. If the thread is a post of concern that there are no potential students, I think that if your goals are more to preserve tradition than to make a fortune, you'll be fine. If, however, the thread was a commentary on the decline of civilization, I don't agree.