A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

[Finlay]

Hello

The question of strength training in the martial arts is quite an old one.

For myself I enjoy powerlifting movements but my main focus is martial arts

For many it comes down to training time. How much time are you willing to take away from skill training and mat time to devote to learning how to lift and then developing that strength to a high level.

For most I would think it is not that much, most if the time I would think lifting would come second.

Strength of course makes a difference and we don' have to go to examples of punching 10 year Olds or wildlife to make that point.

Strength also isn' the holy grail you need to balance it with skill and a lot of other attributes.

As for the exercises, even the top strength and conditionIng coaches don't really agree with each other, if you listen to Charles Poliquin, Ian king, Dan John and others you would get different ideas.

Also saying that martial artists don' know much about strength and conditioning may very well be true. However I think you could probably say the same for a lot of different sports and past times. I was listening to a interview with someone talking about their college football experiece. Apparently coaching involved yelling at the players to catch the ball with a few expletives and insults thrown in.

 

[Finlay]

. If the Incredible Hulk existed for real in our world, he'd be the undisputed champion in every combat sport out there.

OK slow morning at work.........

Taekwondo

Hulk Smash – is disqualified for excessive contact

Kendo

Disqualified for refusing to use ‘puny shinai’

Judo

Hulk wins by full ippon, is later disqualified for also performing full ippon on the referee, the opponent’s coach, his own coach, and members of the crowd

Karate

Hulk sees his opponent is Chuck Norris and runs away

Taiji push hands

Form practice before hand relaxes the Hulk and he returned to being Dr. Banner. He then loses to a 70 year old woman

UFC

Loses by decision to The Flash


I know the last one is Marvel/DC crossover. but it was either The Flash or a Zebra with a killer kick

 

[Zombocalypse]

Hello

The question of strength training in the martial arts is quite an old one.

For myself I enjoy powerlifting movements but my main focus is martial arts

For many it comes down to training time. How much time are you willing to take away from skill training and mat time to devote to learning how to lift and then developing that strength to a high level.

For most I would think it is not that much, most if the time I would think lifting would come second.

Strength of course makes a difference and we don' have to go to examples of punching 10 year Olds or wildlife to make that point.

Strength also isn' the holy grail you need to balance it with skill and a lot of other attributes.

As for the exercises, even the top strength and conditionIng coaches don't really agree with each other, if you listen to Charles Poliquin, Ian king, Dan John and others you would get different ideas.

Also saying that martial artists don' know much about strength and conditioning may very well be true. However I think you could probably say the same for a lot of different sports and past times. I was listening to a interview with someone talking about their college football experiece. Apparently coaching involved yelling at the players to catch the ball with a few expletives and insults thrown in.

Thank you for posting in my thread. I enjoyed reading what you posted.

As far as what you mentioned about how top strength coaches differ in their views, it is also fair to say that there are basic and fundamental maxims that guys like Dan John and Poliquin agree on, such as...

You must squat.

You must do multi-jointed, complex exercises like the squat and the deadlift.

You must vary your training.

You must strive to get stronger in the basic lifts, such as the power clean and the squat.

You must be mindful of what and how much you eat.

And so on and so forth.

And it is those maxims that we all must strive to follow. In the end, it is only confusing if you don't know any better. Information nowadays is incredibly easy to obtain. You can even go to college in your own home.

 

[Zombocalypse]

OK slow morning at work.........

Taekwondo

Hulk Smash – is disqualified for excessive contact

Kendo

Disqualified for refusing to use ‘puny shinai’

Judo

Hulk wins by full ippon, is later disqualified for also performing full ippon on the referee, the opponent’s coach, his own coach, and members of the crowd

Karate

Hulk sees his opponent is Chuck Norris and runs away

Taiji push hands

Form practice before hand relaxes the Hulk and he returned to being Dr. Banner. He then loses to a 70 year old woman

UFC

Loses by decision to The Flash


I know the last one is Marvel/DC crossover. but it was either The Flash or a Zebra with a killer kick

Brilliant! Absolutely hilarious.

 

[jobo]

Hello

The question of strength training in the martial arts is quite an old one.

For myself I enjoy powerlifting movements but my main focus is martial arts

For many it comes down to training time. How much time are you willing to take away from skill training and mat time to devote to learning how to lift and then developing that strength to a high level.

For most I would think it is not that much, most if the time I would think lifting would come second.

Strength of course makes a difference and we don' have to go to examples of punching 10 year Olds or wildlife to make that point.

Strength also isn' the holy grail you need to balance it with skill and a lot of other attributes.

As for the exercises, even the top strength and conditionIng coaches don't really agree with each other, if you listen to Charles Poliquin, Ian king, Dan John and others you would get different ideas.

Also saying that martial artists don' know much about strength and conditioning may very well be true. However I think you could probably say the same for a lot of different sports and past times. I was listening to a interview with someone talking about their college football experiece. Apparently coaching involved yelling at the players to catch the ball with a few expletives and insults thrown in.

well yes, i don't disagree with your post or the op at a fundamental level, rather his,dogma that strengh and particularly bar bells are the only way to go.

my thoughts are,, that if you can go into a fight/ being attacked or what ever being the strongest or at least on a level playing field, that makes anything that comes after in terms of fighting skills a hugh bonus to you. If you are substantially deficiency strengh wise then its going to be nip and tuck if your skill are enough to turn that disadvantage round. Maybe maybe not?? dependent on a whole hoist of unknown variables?

as its a fundamental element , neglecting it is fool hardy and you need to be extremely confident in your skills to be confident. That you will win against a random opponent of unknown strengh and skill.

you can't of course be the strongest out there, but you can be the strongest you can reasonably be with out dedicating your whole training just to strengh.

someone whoa opinions on such matters i respect, told me, that if you can do 40 press up, 15 pull ups and run a mile in 8 mins, you will be very unlucky to meet someone who can beat you in a pushing and pulling match, even if they are notably bigger/ stronger, you are likely to out last them. It's all a % game

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well yes, i don't disagree with your post or the op at a fundamental level, rather his,dogma that strengh and particularly bar bells are the only way to go.

my thoughts are,, that if you can go into a fight/ being attacked or what ever being the strongest or at least on a level playing field, that makes anything that comes after in terms of fighting skills a hugh bonus to you. If you are substantially deficiency strengh wise then its going to be nip and tuck if your skill are enough to turn that disadvantage round. Maybe maybe not?? dependent on a whole hoist of unknown variables?

as its a fundamental element , neglecting it is fool hardy and you need to be extremely confident in your skills to be confident. That you will win against a random opponent of unknown strengh and skill.

you can't of course be the strongest out there, but you can be the strongest you can reasonably be with out dedicating your whole training just to strengh.

someone whoa opinions on such matters i respect, told me, that if you can do 40 press up, 15 pull ups and run a mile in 8 mins, you will be very unlucky to meet someone who can beat you in a pushing and pulling match, even if they are notably bigger/ stronger, you are likely to out last them. It's all a % game

I agree with the principles, though you and I might quibble over some of the fine points. I think it's a po-tay-to/po-tah-to issue. I hear folks say that strength augments skill (of two equally skilled people, the stronger wins), and your statement comes to me as saying skill augments strength (of two equally strong people, the more skilled wins). It comes out to the same thing, and should be something we can all agree on, though we may differ on what the emphasis should be. Most of us have seen the videos of very skilled people manhandling much stronger opponents, and most of us have been manhandled by people slightly less skilled who had a lot more strength/conditioning/flexibility.

 

[jobo]

I agree with the principles, though you and I might quibble over some of the fine points. I think it's a po-tay-to/po-tah-to issue. I hear folks say that strength augments skill (of two equally skilled people, the stronger wins), and your statement comes to me as saying skill augments strength (of two equally strong people, the more skilled wins). It comes out to the same thing, and should be something we can all agree on, though we may differ on what the emphasis should be. Most of us have seen the videos of very skilled people manhandling much stronger opponents, and most of us have been manhandled by people slightly less skilled who had a lot more strength/conditioning/flexibility.

i think its a where you are starting from perspective, fighting is an athletic activerty, you cant really split off skill from fitness in any meaningful way , and i think the ones who put all their effort in skill development might get a shock if / when they get into a fighting with someone far more athletic, just as our friend the,zombie man will get a rude awakening if he ever gets to a mma class and finds his strong legs don't matter a jot if someone good decided to punch him on the nose or arm bar him

there a lad at my class who is really quite good, fast, good movement, a heavy punch/ kick on him and he is 30 years younger, if i try to kick box him i get beaten up, he is just to fast for me to hit, if i can grab an arm its all over for him as I'm to strong for him and i throw him about like a rag doll, which makes him very cross, he says that's not karate, no but your still on the floor.

i need more skill, he Needs more strength

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the deadlift...

If you lift, you will need pull too.

 

[jobo]

If you lift, you will need pull too.

you most certain do, pull is a most neglected area!

 

[drop bear]

i think its a where you are starting from perspective, fighting is an athletic activerty, you cant really split off skill from fitness in any meaningful way , and i think the ones who put all their effort in skill development might get a shock if / when they get into a fighting with someone far more athletic, just as our friend the,zombie man will get a rude awakening if he ever gets to a mma class and finds his strong legs don't matter a jot if someone good decided to punch him on the nose or arm bar him

there a lad at my class who is really quite good, fast, good movement, a heavy punch/ kick on him and he is 30 years younger, if i try to kick box him i get beaten up, he is just to fast for me to hit, if i can grab an arm its all over for him as I'm to strong for him and i throw him about like a rag doll, which makes him very cross, he says that's not karate, no but your still on the floor.

i need more skill, he Needs more strength

Skill and strength is the same thing. Power lifters are very technical for that reason.

 

[Zombocalypse]

If you lift, you will need pull too.

I don't understand your point.

At first glance, this post of yours screams "DUH!" in my brain.

At second glance, this post of yours makes me think, "Do you actually believe that lifting and pulling are NOT synonymous?"

Pulling is part of lifting weights. Rows, shrugs, and pull-ups are forms of pulling. And so is the deadlift.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't understand your point.

If you train pulling for MA purpose, your training will be different from the body builder pulling.

This is the ancient weight pulley.

There are many different ways to train the pulling by using the weight pulley.

The weight pulley uses very long rope for special training purpose.

 

[jobo]

I don't understand your point.

At first glance, this post of yours screams "DUH!" in my brain.

At second glance, this post of yours makes me think, "Do you actually believe that lifting and pulling are NOT synonymous?"

Pulling is part of lifting weights. Rows, shrugs, and pull-ups are forms of pulling. And so is the deadlift.

the dead lift is mostly pushing with you legs, the pulling element is comparatively small,
bar bell lifter in general seems to focus more on push than pull, which is why a good number of them have that forward twist of their upper body

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Skill and strength is the same thing. Power lifters are very technical for that reason.

I think he was differentiating MA skill from the strength that supports it. They overlap, for sure, but aren't entirely the same thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't understand your point.

At first glance, this post of yours screams "DUH!" in my brain.

At second glance, this post of yours makes me think, "Do you actually believe that lifting and pulling are NOT synonymous?"

Pulling is part of lifting weights. Rows, shrugs, and pull-ups are forms of pulling. And so is the deadlift.

There's definitely a pulling element, specifically in things like the rows. But it's not a pulling element for the lower body, and a different stress on the core than the pulls KFW is referring to. Cable machines provide a good option for these pulls in most gyms (and can stand in for both dumbbells and barbells in some exercises).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Believe it or not, some body builders have problem to do this.

 

[jobo]

Skill and strength is the same thing. Power lifters are very technical for that reason.

clearly it isn't, that correct application of,strength is a motor skill of varying complexity dependent on what you are trying to do, but strength is not a, motor skill its,a simple biological fact of development like the ability to metabalise oxygen

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Skill and strength is the same thing.

The skill is what you train in your MA school. The strength is what you develop at home.

The skill is 50% and the strength is another 50%. How to land a punch on your opponent's face is skill. To have the power to knock your opponent down is ability.

A teacher can teach his students "how to break a clinch". The teacher can break all his student's clinch, but none of his students can break the teacher clinch. Why? Both the teacher and students use the same "skill". Since the teacher has more "ability" than the students have. The outcome will be different.

 

[jobo]

Believe it or not, some body builders have problem to do this.

you don't meet many who can do a strict pull up or a pistol squat either

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Believe it or not, some body builders have problem to do this.

I'm pretty sure I would. My shoulders aren't nearly stable enough for that. It'd be something to work toward...