A quite different 1st form!

[Danny T]

If you have mastered the

1. beginner level form,
2. intermediate level form, and
3. advance level form.

When you go back and do your beginner level form (not teach to your students), will you still use your beginner level method, or will you use your advance level method?

When the long fist master Han Ching-Tan did his beginner level Tantui form, he used the intermediate level "toe push kick (taught in 3rd road Pao Chuan) " that was not taught during the beginner level Tantui training stage.

As far as for teaching, whether you should teach intermediate method, or even advance method during the beginner training stage, that can be another discussion subject. I like to address important principles during day one.

If one has mastered the form why is one still doing it. Teaching yes, but if one has already mastered it why do it?
Would be a waste of time and energy.
However, one may feel they haven't mastered it. It would be up to that individual to decide and no one else.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If one has mastered the form why is one still doing it?

1. In school when training partners are available, you use

- "partner training" to "develop" your skill.
- "sparring/wrestling" to "test" your skill.

2. At home when you are alone by yourself, you use:

- "solo form/drill" to "polish" your skill.
- "equipment training" to "enhance" your skill.

At home, I don't train forms. I only train drills. In that GM Han's clip, he let someone to record his form. He was not teaching.

 

[Danny T]

Ok. And?
As I said, It is up to the individual.
If one has mastered something why is one 'developing' one's skill? If you have master there is no need to 'test'...it is mastered.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you have master there is no need to 'test'...it is mastered.

Even after you have mastered a skill, you still need to "test" it weekly so you won't lose it. If you don't use it, you will lose it.

Back to the WC discussion, it's very common for someone to replace the beginner level training by the more advance level training in any CMA system.

 

[KPM]

This myth that there are many forms and branches of Wing Chun is fake untrue.

---I disagree. Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun is quite different from Ip Man Wing Chun. It doesn't even use the 3 form (SNT, CK, BG) format. Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is quite different from Yuen Kay Shan/Sum Nung Wing Chun. To say that it is untrue that there are different forms and branches of Wing Chun would be to ignore the obvious and sometimes quite large technical differences between them. And its not just a matter of personal expression or a poorly thought out youtube video.


I just get annoyed how people make claims there are other branches of it.

---If we assume that you haven't been around enough to see the different styles/systems of Wing Chun, and that your comments are really meant to say "other branches of Ip Man Wing Chun"....then there might be some truth to what you are trying to get across.

Just study the the root from the Shaolin monks and you'll see what I mean there is only one Wing Chun that simple!

---You do realize that it is very unlikely that Wing Chun has anything to do with the Shaolin temple? And, again, giving you the benefit of the doubt.....just what specific "root from the Shaolin monks" are you suggesting we study?

 

[Danny T]

Even after you have mastered a skill, you still need to "test" it weekly so you won't lose it. If you don't use it, you will lose it.

Back to the WC discussion, it's very common for someone to replace the beginner level training by the more advance level training in any CMA system.

I agree and not arguing against it.
Even stated that it is all good.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but there is only one WING CHUN LoL

This WC is quite different. This is the kind of training that I like. You only see the body move and you don't see the arm move. That's called "身法 (Shen Fa) - body method".

I do believe that the "身法 (Shen Fa) - body method" should be taught on day one.

Here is another his clip.

 

[Danny T]

Danny T said: ↑
"there is only one Wing Chun that simple!"

Nope, I did not say that. That quote came from Twisted Fighter in post #18 of this thread.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nope, I did not say that. That quote came from Twisted Fighter in post #18 of this thread.

Sorry! It's fixed.

 

[OzPaul]

The weight-shift (and corresponding centerline shift) is familiar to me, but is turning on the heels the standard method in Leung Sheung WC? Somehow I thought maybe they also turned on the center of the foot as some other Yip Man branches do.

I can't speak for all Leung Sheung Wing Chun but turning on the heels is the way it was taught by Master Ng Wah Sum.

 

[FighterTwister]

This WC is quite different. This is the kind of training that I like. You only see the body move and you don't see the arm move. That's called "身法 (Shen Fa) - body method".

I do believe that the "身法 (Shen Fa) - body method" should be taught on day one.

Here is another his clip.

You guys don't get it then!

There is still only "ONE WING CHUN" (116 WING TSUN) and whats happened over time especially the last say 20 years is that people have added crap to it, thats what I have said all along.

I mean what the heck is that guy doing its some form of Wushu, look fella's I just piss my self laughing at all the mess that people make its just crap and its ruined a base form.

Wing Chun is Wing Chun in the original 116 techniques the drills/sets etc are all essentially phases of learning the actual style is a simple form due to emphasis on the motion of economy, its really that simple believe it or not, but I personally don't care what others think although I find it annoying how stupid things have become.

If you developed a new system derived from Wing Chun then call it something else, is really the point because its not Wing Chun then if you are adding new content or movements etc

I'm going to stop here because I know where this is going and I really don't care to argue over the roots, I know the truth for myself others can spend their entire life and never sort out anything because they want to believe in the mess we have now.

I also have read that this has been discussed before in this Forum and its also been fought over to death in other places online.

I simply see it all as a joke as its become and with YouTube and the internet certain Martial Arts are just going to keep breeding hybrids, people want to give themselves an image and also make claims that their system has evolved .........hahaha........ I piss myself laughing honestly.

In old times you would be privately challenged on this and told to stop, but we live in the modern world now the "INTERNET+ YOUTUBE" mayhem.

However what I can respect is yes learn new system styles and incorporate that as part of your circle of training systems or tools from other martial arts.

Like for example calling your self say .............."Combined Progressive Martial Arts Club".

That has under its umbrella of styles that are taught being :-

• Wushu
• Chin-na
• Tai Chi Quan
• Kung-Fu San Soo
• Filiopino Arts
• BBJ
• Tae Kwoon Do
• Jeet Kune Do
  
• and Wing Chun

But for petes sake leave each system intact stop messing with its core principles just confusing everyone, also thats stealing and its not burrowing which I would accept as someone who takes joy in all styles and tools to learn and acquire widening their knowledge and experience in the martial arts.

Anyway thats my stance and surely the MA world will have its own but there is always a beginning a root an idea or concept start and Wing Chun started when 108 separate wooden dummies from the Shaolin Temple were combined into one by the Nun Ng Mui to make training more efficient and effective. The Wing Chun wooden dummy uses three arms and a leg configuration designed to cultivate fighting skill and chi simultaneously which allowed 116 moves to be developed as a complete system and taught ever since.

Links:-

• Mu ren zhuang - Wikipedia
  
• 108 (number) - Wikipedia
• https://www.amazon.com/108-Movements-Shaolin-Wooden-Men-Hall/dp/9627284149
• https://www.amazon.com/Wing-Dummy-Techniques-Demonstrated-Grandmaster/dp/9627284033

As to whether their was a disagreement and a break in the ranks or simply a new finding or development that led to either a fire or burning of the Shaolin final chamber of 108 wooden men, we won't know but thats the birth of Wing Chun system and the Wooden Dummy 116 techniques as we know now.

Thats fact or the root, that simple, there is no magic or complicated tree of various systems of Wing Chun.

But carry on..............the darn internet and YouTube and social media with its conjecture, assumptions and interpretations who can stop.

 

[FighterTwister]

To clarify the origin of Chow's Wing Chun, he learned from Ng Wah Sum. The system and forms he teaches are his own because he integrates other methods into his training, that's why it's called Integrative Wing Chun.

I understand that and thats part of the confusion with all these Wing Chun places of teaching now, however he does give credit and some historical background on his webpage honoring the roots of Wing Chun - What is Wing Chun? | Sifu Chow's Integrative Wing Chun

Although in my opinion the problem is still.............

That should not say Wing Chun but maybe Sifu Chows Integrative Martial Arts incorporating:-

• Wing Chun
• Jeet Kune Do
• BBJ
• Filipino Arts
  
• Boxing
• Silat
• etc

Because of what he says here................

INTEGRATIVE WING CHUN GOES TO 360 ALL RANGE

What is the definition of a Complete Fighter? Someone who can defeat an opponent in all ranges of combat (distance, close range, takedowns, ground grappling). What is "sticky hands"? A close-range hand and arm training used in Wing Chun Kung Fu. What does "sticky body" mean? A natural companion to and more penetrating approach of sticky hands, in which the entire body is involved in fighting. What can offer this transitional type of fighting? Sifu Chow's Integrative Wing Chun System. Practitioners of Wing Chun are familiar with single and double sticky-hands (chi-sao). These drills allow the student to develop sensitivity and timing through feeling an opponent's commitment. Sifu Chung Chow cautions his students to be conscious of whether or not they feel commitment (or energy) on their wrist or elbow. If an opponent grabs his wrist, the student brings up the elbow into a Bong-Sao (Wing Block). Conversely, energy applied to the elbow should cause the student to immediately drop the elbow into a Tan-Sao (Upper Side Block). The main concept to remember is to "be like water" as Bruce Lee often told his students, and to flow with the energy.

Sifu Chow's IWC covers all ranges of fighting, and he breaks down close-range, stand-up fighting into four sections or "phases". Phase 1 refers to the passing of the wrist, which occurs when the student initially makes contact with an opponent (such as after a "break" in chi-sao). Phase 2 means gaining control of, or making a cutting angle on the opponent's elbow. Phase 3 is the actual trapping of the elbow with one hand while penetrating the opponent's blindside for a side choke with the other. Phase 4 is gaining control of the space behind an opponent's back, where s/he can no longer fight. Sifu Chow emphasizes that no one can get to Phase 4 in just one move, and encourages his class to take many steps, as if climbing a ladder. If it is difficult to get a good choke on one side of the opponent, he demonstrates to his students how to flow with the opponent's energy and immediately choke the other side. This tactic can be repeated until a rear naked chokehold, and a Phase 4 position, is achieved. Keep in mind that in Phases 1 through 4, the student is sticking to the opponent the entire time. At Phase 4, the IWC student has completed the distance and close ranges of fighting. Traditional Wing Chun only goes as far as Phase 2 in stand up fighting, and sensitivity extends to the hands and the legs but what about the rest of the body? What about takedowns and ground grappling? The IWC practitioner wants to STICK to the opponent's body, just like with the hands in chi-sao! IsnÕt that a better way to reserve more energy to achieve your goal? This is when we get into "sticky body" territory. After Phase 4, the IWC student initiates a takedown. Takedowns can be achieved by the traditional Kau-Gerk from Phase 3, or simply placing the foot behind the opponent's knee in Phase 4 and stepping down. With either of these methods, the student continues to stick to the opponent. With a Kau Gerk, the studentÕs thigh becomes a leverage point to control the opponent's back. If stepping behind an opponent's knee, the studentÕs foot stays there until the opponent reaches the ground. This is the time for control. The transition between takedown and ground grappling is all about controlling and not slamming the opponent. You donÕt want to throw your opponent away if you've spent all of your effort breaking down his/her structure! If an opponent's structure is broken, s/he cannot fight. This will give you time to set up your body mechanics to ensure a proper trapping position. After that, you can easily finish out the fight by either striking or tap-out techniques like joint locks or choking.

For those traditional Wing Chun practitioners unversed with takedown and ground grappling, this probably sounds very technical and time-consuming. However, the benefits of this type of training are immeasurable. By sticking to the arms and then body of an opponent, IWC naturally bridges the gap between stand-up and ground fighting. This unique approach gives the student more options and helps him/her to become a more well rounded fighter.

He mentions Bruce Lee and if you know about Jeet Kune do its a philosophy combining many arts as a way of fighting in a scientific and practical way.

Do you guys see what I mean the dilemma the confusion the problems.

Look he obviously has good intentions no doubt as I don't know the man but the many arguments online as to what is Wing Chun and what style and what Sifu made a better system and all other disputes online is because people keep using the Wing Chun title in their new found art expressing something different, is the problem.

Its just bad and at least Bruce Lee decided to make his own name "JEET-KUNE-DO" ( The way of the intercepting fist) where Wing chun is its base form whilst adding other tools from other fighting methods/styles etc.

The problem is these hybrids using the same name thats where most people get confused and adds fuel to the fire. I really don't care I'm 45 and out LoL but is more of keeping systems intact true and historically correct to its roots and foundations, that is concerning and really the point I'm making.

C'mon what else can really be said here.....................

 

[KPM]

You guys don't get it then!

There is still only "ONE WING CHUN" (116 WING TSUN) and whats happened over time especially the last say 20 years is that people have added crap to it, thats what I have said all along.

Oh! So you are taking the "original Wing Chun" approach! Ok. So just what is "original Wing Chun"? Wing Chun has changed somewhat with nearly every generation that has taught it. So, was Leung Jun "original Wing Chun"? We really don't even know what Leung Jan's system was like. What he taught to the Ku Lo Villagers in his retirement is quite a bit different than today's Ip Man Wing Chun.

My guess is that you are using Ip Man Wing Chun as your yardstick. But even Ip Man had more than one teacher and changed things around throughout his teaching career.

There is no such thing as "original Wing Chun" still around today. People being what they are, things change and evolve (hopefully for he better but not always!) over generations. No one has a time machine to go back to the Red Boat era to find "original Wing Chun."

My guess....and my personal opinion....is that Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun or Yui Choi Wing Chun is likely the closest to what was being taught in Leung Jan's generation, simply because they seem to have been "tinkered with" the least.

And dude....you really do need to do some real historical research! Where are you getting this baloney about Shaolin wooden dummy hall? And just one check on your fantasy....no two Wing Chun lineages teach the same dummy form!

 

[FighterTwister]

Hey we go on the crazy Wing Chun super fun park ride.............

LoL

Here is a great example some guy stands out in the open gives credit to Ip Man and openly unveils a new Wing Chun system to the world, I just fall back into my chair and laugh my head off.......... but you get these Ip Man wannabe popping out like weeds.............

YouTube title given ........... "Wing Chun Siu Lim Tau - New Style小念頭"

Hence the the comment -- New Style LoL for crying out loud!

See and I quote..... "my new style from my old style I change a little bit"....... my point exactly........ Pfft LoL

Give me a break please, leave it alone there is only one Wing Chun, please!

People got nothing better to do so they wake up one morning and say hey I'm going to make it to the top I'll create a new Wing Chun system LoL

Its all a joke a "Circus Freak Show" .............

Leave it alone, please!

There is only one Wing Chun system make your own name and for example something like Modern "Chinese Combat Arts" or whatever you like.

Just stop stealing someones elses spot light and good standing on the original system!

Ip Man would be ripping his clothes off now and challenging everyone to a fight like just like this..............

To many copy cats wannabes its a circus show it really is and its been happening for at least 10 good years time to stop this and preserve the the original Wing Tsun 116 techniques derived from the Shaolin Monks before they get lost into the mire of confusion with rhetoric of some farmers and what not and with YouTubes popping up like weeds LoL

Just Google how many Wing Chun family tree types there is from the root of Shaolin to Ip Man and so on ..............so much fake stuff created..............its incredible people are just making money out of what once was a good thing now a joke...........

So with me you or anyone else around just aint' going to win this one!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

(Note: I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so I may be repeating what others have said.)

Something I noticed in this that I haven't noticed in looking at other WC forms (not saying it's not there - you guys know about how much I know of WC) - his shift with a punch takes his head off-line from an incoming straight attack. It was most obvious (to me) at about 5:00. Is this shifting to slip off-line common?

 

[geezer]

(Note: I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so I may be repeating what others have said.)

Something I noticed in this that I haven't noticed in looking at other WC forms (not saying it's not there - you guys know about how much I know of WC) - his shift with a punch takes his head off-line from an incoming straight attack. It was most obvious (to me) at about 5:00. Is this shifting to slip off-line common?

Are you talking about the video of the guy in the black tank-top in the previous post???

I didn't see any lateral stance shifting at around 5:00. At that point he was bending forward at the waist and then straightening up again ( a movement seen in the Biu Tze set in the Yip Man lineage).

 

[Danny T]

Transferring the center of gravity over one foot and shifting is developed early in our footwork training. And yes it moves the whole body off line and to a different angle to counter attack or to enter. Others may do things differently.

 

[geezer]

Hey we go on the crazy Wing Chun super fun park ride.............

I don't know where you are coming from with all this. First of all, your knowledge of Wing Chun history is totally inaccurate and seems to be very influenced by the fantasy versions of Wing Chun's origins as seen in old kung fu movies and some of the oral traditions erroneously taught as fact in some WC clubs.

I mean, do you really, literally believe wu-xia stories like the tale of the Shaolin Hall of 108 Wooden Men? ...or Ng Mui teaching Yim Wing Tsun to defeat a local bully who was trying to force her to marry him? Do you also believe that George Washington chopped down his father's cherry tree and threw a silver dollar across the Potomac? How about stories about Paul Bunyan and Pecos Bill?

Dude, you seem to be the one who needs to get off Youtube and do some legitimate research. I, for one, studied Wing Chun/ Wing Tsun/ Ving Tsun with legitimate sifus starting back in the 70s when there was no internet. I did bai si and became a disciple of one of Yip Man's direct students back in the early 80s, so with over forty years in Kung Fu, and most of it in WC, I've been around the block, so to speak. And there are a number of people posting here who are way senior to me.

You apparently have studied some Wing Chun. Well, there's an old Chinese saying, "The bottle that's half-full makes the most noise when shaken!" Let me spell that out for you. Bottles that are either empty or very full don't slosh and make noise. Similarly a martial-arts noob and a master both tend to keep quiet, while those with a little knowledge are often overly proud and full of themselves. Another way of putting it: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

...So, here's a bit of friendly advice. Get off your high horse, show a little humility (like in your avatar/picture), and try emptying your cup. You might actually learn something.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Yes. It seems he is very good at posting pictures and videos but not so good at actually listening to what other people are saying.

 

[geezer]

Are you talking about the video of the guy in the black tank-top in the previous post???.

Oh! Now I get it. You mean in the original video. Yeah, we don't turn exactly like that, but we do shift our weight, and consequently, our centerline. Like what Danny T. said.