A Question of Technique and Practical Application.

[Danny T]

Read Danny's post again. Its pretty clear that he is distancing himself from WC practitioners who have embraced anti-grappling as a legitimate aspect of Wing Chun.

[FONT=&quot]Hanzou, don’t read more into what I wrote. You lumped all wc families together with your statement; “Wing Chun guys conjured up…”.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I said, “There is an organization that came up with the ‘anti grappling’ term as a marketing tool.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My point was, that organization uses the term to describe what they do. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My point in the guard reference was that just because one does something doesn’t mean everyone else associated in some manner does the same. Like not all grapplers use the guard. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It's liken to lumping all Brazilian Jujitsu as Gracie Jujitsu. GJJ is BJJ but not all BJJ is GJJ.

[/FONT]

Well we don't claim that our knife disarming abilities can stop a FMA knife practitioner.

Hmm, maybe you don't. However your use of the term 'we' in this part of the discussion suggests BJJ people so you should check out some of the Gracie Instructional Videos showing some very very dangerous and what I would term as 'misguided' BJJ knife disarms and defenses.

 

[Hanzou]

Hmm, maybe you don't. However your use of the term 'we' in this part of the discussion suggests BJJ people so you should check out some of the Gracie Instructional Videos showing some very very dangerous and what I would term as 'misguided' BJJ knife disarms and defenses.

What makes you think I haven't checked then out (if we're talking about them same thing)?

I'd put more stock in those knife defenses than that anti-grappling nonsense any day of the week.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What makes you think I haven't checked then out (if we're talking about them same thing)?

I'd put more stock in those knife defenses than that anti-grappling nonsense any day of the week.

Speaking as a BJJer who has also done some knife training, I would not.

They might work, if you were desparate and lucky, against an unskilled attacker. That's about the same as I would say for the "anti-grappling" that has you so riled up.

 

[K-man]

If I created a system called anti-knife fighting, it would be safe to assume that my system handles all forms of knife-fighting. That would include those highly skilled with the blade.

And it would be safe to assume that that is what I hope I am teaching. I would never claim that my training could guarantee to stop people highly skilled with a blade but it is not confined to static strikes, it is dynamic, it is conducted with real knives and we do train it almost every training session both in Karate and Krav.

Which is a nice intro to your next video ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BLKh1NkDGcU

 

[Hanzou]

Speaking as a BJJer who has also done some knife training, I would not.

They might work, if you were desparate and lucky, against an unskilled attacker. That's about the same as I would say for the "anti-grappling" that has you so riled up.

I put more stock into it because I understand limb and joint manipulation via my Bjj training, and we treat it as an extension of the arm. That's the basis of the knife training I've done in Bjj.

Of course, we've always made it clear that you're probably going to get cut or stabbed in that situation, and you should only attempt it if you're out of options. That's a bit different than anti-grappling's claims.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And it would be safe to assume that that is what I hope I am teaching. I would never claim that my training could guarantee to stop people highly skilled with a blade but it is not confined to static strikes, it is dynamic, it is conducted with real knives and we do train it almost every training session both in Karate and Krav.

Which is a nice intro to your next video ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BLKh1NkDGcU

Are you wanting critiques of that one too? Because I have plenty.

 

[K-man]

Are you wanting critiques of that one too? Because I have plenty.

Yes please. I do too!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I put more stock into it because I understand limb and joint manipulation via my Bjj training, and we treat it as an extension of the arm. That's the basis of the knife training I've done in Bjj.

Of course, we've always made it clear that you're probably going to get cut or stabbed in that situation, and you should only attempt it if you're out of options. That's a bit different than anti-grappling's claims.

You understand limb and joint manipulation, but perhaps not use of the knife. It's the same problem some of the Krav guys in these videos have when they come up with defenses against double-legs or guards that they don't understand.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

I know it doesn't work. Again, any experienced grappler can look at it and tell you it's ineffective. It's not difficult to determine what works in grappling and what doesn't.

Wing Chun wasn't designed to fight from that range, and that's painfully obvious.



At this point it's best to let Danny pop back in and clarify what he meant.




The fact that it's called "anti-grappling" implies that it was designed to fight against skilled grapplers, and was a cash grab to capitalize on Bjj and MMA's explosion in popularity.




And I have yet to see anything out of anti-grappling that looks marginally effective.



When someone creates an ineffective combat system out of thin air, we tend to call it fraudulent around these parts. Why? Because it doesn't do what it was marketed to do.



Considering that anti-grappling popped up right when Bjj gained popularity, it's pretty hard to not recognize the purpose behind its creation. I mean wrestling has been around for centuries, no one in WC or WT created "anti-grappling" back then to counter that form of grappling.

I'm curious to know when you say the WT anti-grappling is ineffective, against whom do you mean?

I have no experience with BJJ or Judo and haven't wrestled with anyone apart from my mates and not since I was about 8. Could it work against me?

 

[K-man]

You understand limb and joint manipulation, but perhaps not use of the knife. It's the same problem some of the Krav guys in these videos have when they come up with defenses against double-legs or guards that they don't understand.

Tony, just as an aside. Hanzou posted these videos as evidence of Krav being useless or at least ineffective for self defence. What he did was posted video of a guy who claims to be something he isn't, teaching techniques that may have come from his Judo background. Wherever they came from they are not what I have seen in Krav and in time I will also post my comment on the slashing knife defence, or lack of.

Again, I would love Rich Parsons or Brian to comment on it as it is right up their alley, but please feel free to voice your opinion.
:asian:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes please. I do too!

Okay ...

The attacker comes in with a slow slash that actually comes up at least a foot short of where the attacker is standing. (Seriously, watch the overhead view. The defender could have stood perfectly still and been safe.)

The attacker allows the slash to bring his arm in an un-necessarily wide arc as if he was swinging a heavier weapon like a stick or machete. This, plus the fact that the demonstrator is moving faster than his uke is the only reason he is able to get almost completely behind uke.

Good luck catching the knife hand if you haven't done something to soften up the attacker first.

No control of the attacker's free hand to keep him from punching you in the face, passing the knife to the other hand, etc.

The transition from the low grip to the bent arm lock is completely strength based. There are ways to make that transition more technical. If he had his wrapping arm a few inches higher in the initial grip, then he could be applying a straight arm-lock pressure. He could use that arm-lock pressure plus some off-balancing to disrupt uke's balance and structure and encourage a reaction in the direction he wants to go. Since he doesn't do any of that, there's nothing to stop the attacker form resisting the upwards pressure long enough to punch the defender in the face, pass the knife to the other hand, and start stabbing while the defender has both hands tied up.

Bottom line, the technique as demonstrated requires not only an incompetent attack, but that the defender be faster and stronger than his attacker.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Tony, just as an aside. Hanzou posted these videos as evidence of Krav being useless or at least ineffective for self defence. What he did was posted video of a guy who claims to be something he isn't, teaching techniques that may have come from his Judo background. Wherever they came from they are not what I have seen in Krav and in time I will also post my comment on the slashing knife defence, or lack of.

Again, I would love Rich Parsons or Brian to comment on it as it is right up their alley, but please feel free to voice your opinion.
:asian:

Understood. Maybe I should have said "the same problem some of the guys who claim to be Krav (or WC or whatever) have when they come up with these defenses."

 

[Hanzou]

You understand limb and joint manipulation, but perhaps not use of the knife. It's the same problem some of the Krav guys in these videos have when they come up with defenses against double-legs or guards that they don't understand.

Again, you treat it as an extension of the arm, and you apply the same principles as unarmed fighting. That's pretty much every martial art vs a knife; The details change, but the fundamentals don't. You control the arm, you control the knife.

It really isn't the same as attempting to apply old fundamentals and new details against grappling. Grappling is far too complex for that.

You may notice this when new people enter your Bjj gym for the first time and roll against a seasoned student. The newbie is like on an alien planet not know what to do, while the Bjj exponent uses him as a grappling dummy.

Example;

We know how to stop a knifer; you control the arm holding the knife. Even the guy who was getting knifed up in that video got control of the knifer's hand a few times;

The difficult part is getting that control. If you're used to gaining that control, its far easier to gain that control when it counts.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm curious to know when you say the WT anti-grappling is ineffective, against whom do you mean?

I have no experience with BJJ or Judo and haven't wrestled with anyone apart from my mates and not since I was about 8. Could it work against me?

You wouldn't be using grappling to attack someone. Only someone confident in their ability to grapple would utilize offensive grappling to attack someone.

In my case, I would use pretty much nothing but Bjj the entire time. Clinch, Take down, gaining the superior position (preferably the mount), and going for a quick choke (if I needed to remove you from a fight).

In short, anti-grappling was created to stop me, not you.

 

[K-man]

Okay ...

The attacker comes in with a slow slash that actually comes up at least a foot short of where the attacker is standing. (Seriously, watch the overhead view. The defender could have stood perfectly still and been safe.)

The attacker allows the slash to bring his arm in an un-necessarily wide arc as if he was swinging a heavier weapon like a stick or machete. This, plus the fact that the demonstrator is moving faster than his uke is the only reason he is able to get almost completely behind uke.

Good luck catching the knife hand if you haven't done something to soften up the attacker first.

No control of the attacker's free hand to keep him from punching you in the face, passing the knife to the other hand, etc.

The transition from the low grip to the bent arm lock is completely strength based. There are ways to make that transition more technical. If he had his wrapping arm a few inches higher in the initial grip, then he could be applying a straight arm-lock pressure. He could use that arm-lock pressure plus some off-balancing to disrupt uke's balance and structure and encourage a reaction in the direction he wants to go. Since he doesn't do any of that, there's nothing to stop the attacker form resisting the upwards pressure long enough to punch the defender in the face, pass the knife to the other hand, and start stabbing while the defender has both hands tied up.

Bottom line, the technique as demonstrated requires not only an incompetent attack, but that the defender be faster and stronger than his attacker.

To be honest I'm not concerned with the speed of the attack. He is demonstrating his technique. I'm not concerned that the knife comes up short either for the reason that the left hand on the elbow is restricting the arm movement which normally would be a good strategy, except against a knife. I would suggest that against that type of reverse slash it is relatively easy to capture the arm in a relatively safe manner but trying to catch the arm with the hands like that could be the cause of your demise. Catching the arm with the hands does have a place but not where the attacker can vary the level of the attack with relative ease as in the back slash.

Another thing here is that the slash is pretty much horizontal. In reality it will probably be rising, as unless the knife is in the back of the hand the knife hand will turn under after the first slash and be coming up, something that this defence won't handle well. In this demo the attacker is making a big slow turn which comes up higher than I would think of as natural. The defence we practise covers the area from the upper thigh to the face. One technique covers all levels. That is not true of the defence shown.

Then we come to the free hand. I always teach that people have to be aware of the other hand and when my guys have the knife I insist that they use it when they can when someone is attempting to disarm them. In practise if your technique is clean the other hand does not come into play. In the demonstration shown the technique relied on strength, as you pointed out. A female or smaller person may not have been able to perform that and in Krav it is designed so smaller, less strong people can still prevail. In most cases that comes down to how you teach a technique.

And of course the arm bar needs to be on and effective to stop the other hand being used. If I was teaching that bar the elbow would have been on my chest making a fulcrum I wouldn't have been grabbing for my wrist for the figure four at that time either. That type of bar would not be my first choice.

I also thought the stripping of the knife was a bit clumsy as well. Turning the wrist to take the knife out of the hand is great, just not from that position. There are better options available.

Always interesting to look at what others are teaching, even if it is to look for pitfalls.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

In short, anti-grappling was created to stop me, not you.

I doubt you were foremost in anyone's mind.

 

[K-man]

Again, you treat it as an extension of the arm, and you apply the same principles as unarmed fighting. That's pretty much every martial art vs a knife; The details change, but the fundamentals don't. You control the arm, you control the knife.

We know how to stop a knifer; you control the arm holding the knife. Even the guy who was getting knifed up in that video got control of the knifer's hand a few times.

The difficult part is getting that control. If you're used to gaining that control, its far easier to gain that control when it counts.

The only thing you have right is the bit about controlling the arm. Unless you are practising against unscripted attacks every time you trained I doubt you could even stop a little kid with a knife. We practise hours of this stuff but I could never claim to know how to stop a knifer. You go up against someone wanting to kill you and I'll have my money on the guy with the knife. That is why all our training is 'get out of Dodge'. Training against a knife attack is training for a situation you just don't want to be in.

 

[Hanzou]

The only thing you have right is the bit about controlling the arm. Unless you are practising against unscripted attacks every time you trained I doubt you could even stop a little kid with a knife.

Again, when the fundamentals are sound, the only thing left is the details. I've controlled the limbs of people a lot larger and stronger than myself while they were trying to cave my face in. I don't know why you believe a knife suddenly alters the fundamentals to the point where I can't control a kid's arm. That's nonsense.

As for practicing against unscripted attacks every time I train; That's what we do when we roll. And yeah, that takes place every time I train.

We practise hours of this stuff but I could never claim to know how to stop a knifer.

I didn't say you could stop a knifer every time, I said you know what you need to do to stop them. You actually being able to accomplish that goal is a different thing entirely.

You go up against someone wanting to kill you and I'll have my money on the guy with the knife. That is why all our training is 'get out of Dodge'. Training against a knife attack is training for a situation you just don't want to be in.

Agreed. Which is fortunate that our knife training is merely an extension of our existing training, not something else entirely.

 

[drop bear]

Most of which have absolutely no place in the context of SD or as a replacement for the Krav one that Hanzou posted.
:asian:

You have used guard passes in a self defence situation?

 

[Hanzou]

You have used guard passes in a self defence situation?

I think Kman is looking for guard passes that include groin punches and hair pulls.

Nevermind the guard passes that actually work....