A Boxer Style Hook

[MJS]

Guys,

We have a good discussion going here so far. Lamont is in fact correct regarding Andrews posting. Mods., when involved in a discussion, do not moderate the thread in question. As always, if anyone has an issue with a post, or a member, please use the RTM feature, which is the little red triangle in the upper right hand corner of every post.

We have 2 different viewpoints here, one from Kenpo and the other from a boxing/mma area. Personally, I think that if we all keep an open mind, both can be discussed.

So..back to the discussion.

Mike

 

[kidswarrior]

But I'll be honest, most people that don't box and think they are throwing a boxing style hook tend to butcher it. So I can see why some people might think it has little use.

I would have no idea of the proper mechanics and complete devastation a hook can cause if not for training in boxing.

 

[Doc]

I'm by default as open minded as any. Hell I'm often on the outside even among some Kenpo folks. But no, "he ain't been polite," and at least two of the people on this thread agree he's being anything but, along with my personal email several others. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and most everybody here is pretty cool most of the time, but not him on this thread.

 

[kidswarrior]

Thus the horizontal punch in Kenpo. Same thing different description.

Well, I think I finally understand one of Doc's posts . Just can't keep up with the man sometimes.

To add a third option, I know zDom (Hapkido) uses a hooking ridge hand. From what I can gather, it's a straight-in ridge which then hooks (with body weight behind it, ala boxers) as it reaches its target (temple). Most of the discussion here has been about EPAK (imagine that, on a forum called EPAK :lol2, but my Kempo training is SKK. So, went back and looked at some of FV material. And he has the very same hooking ridge hand (calls it something else, but whatever). Maybe it's in more strains of the arts than I previously thought.

 

[SL4Drew]

Countless people have been doing things for a long time, it doesn't mean they understand them. Ashida Kim has been doingin Ninjitsu for a long time, yet his name does not hold much weight in that field. The "I've been doing it before you where born" argument is pure logical fallacy.

Again, logical fallacy. I've trained with people that where really good at styles that I don't do as well, doesn't make me understand the style.

I think James said it pretty well and would echo him. I would like to point out the original question was "why we don't use a boxer's style hook punch in Parker's Kenpo?" Doc answered that, stating Kenpo does but it is really called something else. You made the mistake in assuming he didn't know what he was talking about because his terminology differed than yours. (A rose is a rose by any other name.)

So if you want to really talk fallacies of logic or reasoning, it seems the type of fallacy you are invoking is argumentum ad antiquitatem. This is inapplicable here because Doc was explaining his own experience, rather than appealing to tradition as justification for maintaining the status quo. Nor did he invoke any general authority (Argumentum ad verecundiam), as you claimed.

I believe if you read the post more carefully you will realize he was informing you that he has experience with and an understanding of both Kenpo and boxing. You spun it incorrectly to provide you with a straw man, which is itself a fallacy. Your argument may have sounded impressive, but it lacked any real merit.

So, I feel compelled to point out not only were you mistaken, but you were also dismissive. Plus, you ignored the subsequent clarification, and then you twisted it into an ad hominem attack. No one mentioned anyone’s master or lineage except you. No one accused anyone of sitting in a “box” except you.

Perhaps a true “open-mindedness” or interest in “outside ideas” might have lead you ask ‘why do you say that,’ instead of boldly proclaiming ‘no, you’re wrong.’ Who knows, learning might have even happened.

 

[Doc]

Well, I think I finally understand one of Doc's posts . Just can't keep up with the man sometimes.

To add a third option, I know zDom (Hapkido) uses a hooking ridge hand. From what I can gather, it's a straight-in ridge which then hooks (with body weight behind it, ala boxers) as it reaches its target (temple). Most of the discussion here has been about EPAK (imagine that, on a forum called EPAK :lol2, but my Kempo training is SKK. So, went back and looked at some of FV material. And he has the very same hooking ridge hand (calls it something else, but whatever). Maybe it's in more strains of the arts than I previously thought.

The truth is, depending upon understanding, all functional arts have to share anatomical similarities to be effective regardless of what you call it. That was one of the points I was attempting to make. Potato, Potaughto both make french fries, but ws cut off and told I was jsut wrong. I may not know much, but I know a little Kenpo and human anatomy that makes it work.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Are there any video clips of the Kenpo horizontal punch and other variations for everybody to take a look at?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

so the hook occurs after the fist lands? the fist hits perpendicular in that case, its a horizontal punch in kenpo terms, the hooking is just a way to return to guard.And the arm has a great deal to do with the power of any punch.

Bingo!!!

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Are there any video clips of the Kenpo horizontal punch and other variations for everybody to take a look at?

Just about any hook punch clip will do. Same punch, different name.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Just about any hook punch clip will do. Same punch, different name.

That is fine but I would like to see a kempo practitioner performing what is considered to be a hook punch. There has to be some videos out there. If no ones has any I will start looking this afternoon.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'd like to see that too.

It seems there is a focus on the angle of the hit, which is ok, but the boxing style hook is very specific in how it is thrown and where it draws power. I'd like to see a clip of this, or perhaps someone with a camera could do one up if none are available?

 

[JamesB]

Bingo!!!

I got something right?! cool!!

 

[The Master]

Me thinks someone needs to get the so-called moderators under control on these two forums. That's where most of the discourse comes from lately. Most of us play nice here without their input, and we appear to be over-moderated. Why is someone NOT in Kenpo moderating a subject they know nothing about?

Damn those moderators. They should just shut up right Doc? All these posts from moderators = moderation right? And if a guy who is a moderator posts in an area he doesn't moderate, that means he's over moderating, right? And what would a non-kenpoist know about kenpo? Especially compared to someone like yourself. I mean, no one knows kenpo like you do, what you being they one guy out of all the rest that Parker gave secret training too that none of the others got. They can't have, otherwise they would be teaching it right?

I read your huff n puff there about over moderation, sat back and read through a number of threads here and I can't find a single recent moderator warning. In fact, i saw a person who happens to be a moderator here, posting his informed opinion. I didn't see moderation going on. Maybe that degree from that prestigious university you always refuse to identify lets you see more than us mere mortals who have not yet found that enlightenment thing. Who bloody knows? Just because someone disagrees with you or wants to to expand and validate your reply doesn't make it "moderation". But you with your expansive background would now that right? So why not just do it since that is often what you teacher types ask us lowly students to do so often? "Expand and Justify"

Seriously Doc, lighten up and stop thinking you are the sole fountain of kenpo wisdom around. Your SL-4 stuff isn't bad, but others have equally valid theories on movement and all that stuff. One doesn't need to have been anointed secretly by EP to know the mechanics of boxing, just ask Mike Tyson but watch your ears. You have a ton of valuable knowledge, but you come off as a closed minded and often arrogant know-it-all who thinks his **** don't stink in too many of your postings. I for one, don't care for feeling as if someone is talking down to me.

By The Way, Back to Moderation:
Mr. Green moderates the MMA and Grappling sections.
You might also want to reread the rules Doc before your fantasy that disagreement + moderation + public outcry != account suspention be proven for the false statement it is.

Have a Nice Kenpo Day.

 

[Blindside]

Have a Nice Kenpo Day.

Clyde!

Wait, no, Clyde wouldn't be anonymous.

 

[Ray]

disagreement + moderation + public outcry != account suspention

what's wrong with .NE. instead of !=

c is nice but there's nothing that can't be done in FORTRAN...

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I'd like to see that too.

It seems there is a focus on the angle of the hit, which is ok, but the boxing style hook is very specific in how it is thrown and where it draws power. I'd like to see a clip of this, or perhaps someone with a camera could do one up if none are available?

In Kenpo terminology (which is where all the "heated" discourse is originating from) the name is defined by the path the weapon follows prior to impact. In short a circular punch that lands on the "away" side of the circle is commonly called a roundhouse, once the punch starts coming back to the body it is commonly called a hook. I say commonly because like everything lse there is variance in the interpretation.

With regards to the "boxer style" hook I could debate all day that the specfics are not as specific as you imply. I have had many boxing and kickboxing instructors/coaches (not going to name drop but will say some are VERY notable). None of these guys can agree on how to throw a hook or even a jab. Some say to use the shoulder to "snap it" some say not to. Some say to "open up" the elbow early some say wait until the last minute. Some say to drive off of the rear foot some say to pivot hard off of the lead foot. The "specifics" are anything but. Just like kenpoists trying to agree on how to do Delayed Sword. There are few specifics.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

In the "Secrets of Chinese Karate" book by Mr. P., several different types of hooks are listed. Including slicing hooks, chopping hooks, horizontal and vertical variations of same, and so on. These were once a part of the stuff we trained in kenpo; multiple variations on a theme, studying the nature of the attacking weapon, it's path & line, and potential angles of incidence to available targets...those that were already available, and those that become available as a result of strike manipulation or contact/control manipulation...stuf that's there, "Because I put it there".

I learned these hooks. Hell, I learned variations of LF1 & 2 where these hooks -- in combination with some of the other obscure punches -- replaced some of the standard blows taught in canonized EPAK.

Depending on your lineage, kenpo has hooks. And nobody reesponded to the Gentleman from Jersey when he pointed out the inability of many of the listed techs, as written, to respond effectively to the classic boxers-style hook.

Now, I'm gonna ignore all that silly argumentation stuff, and get back on topic with some observations about the hook; I suggest all follow suit, as sarcasm is helpful either, is it?

I boxed for a spell. Had to...bad point sparring habit of fighting a guy with my back turned mostly to him to minimize target availability...had to get back in the habit of facing him head on. The hook I learned for boxing, from boxers, was a fixed-shoulder, palm down (generally considered US hook, in contrast to the palm-in european version), turning at the torso. This from guys that were Archi Moore's sparring partners, dogs in Foremans gym, and the like...so they know boxing.The momentum and strength come from driving the body with the legs, and the fist clips him on the way by. The wind up for a hook alone is silly, so it's typically thrown in the return to neutral from a rear cross.

To "kenpo-ize it" for kenpo students, I have them throw the rear hand all the way into a forward bow. Rather than utilizing opposing forces with the lead hand drawn to hip chamber, they chamber the left hand high, fingers at or near the temple or crown of the head. Just before returning to a neutral bow, the lead hand just drops to a position akin to a low upward block against an imaginary attack from 10:00, fixed at a parallel plane to the floor at about the level of the collarbone, 90 degree angles all the way around, and drive the torso into the blow; to make it more boxing-like, they can continue as if turing into a reverse bow, and lift the lead heel so they end up in a wide kneel of sorts facing the other direction. If the bugger is too far away, it can be transitioned into a "slanted in hook", where it's part hook, part jab. This blow maintains strength of the hook, while better adapting to distance changes. Also picks up on better/nastier target opportunities along the side of the head...mandible, under the ear, temple.

In lotsa boxing gyms, I've seen people thrown dissociated hooks. More of a tight roundhouse flail, but certainly not driven by the body and legs. A lead hook is where you should be able to get your opponent to feel the effects of all the heavy squats and step-back lunges you've been doing. If it's only your arm hitting the guy, you're following a hooking path, but not pushing hook power. The body drives the punch in a hook; not the limb.

Take an oval hula-hoop, and hold it parallel to the floor, pointy parts of the oval towards 9:00 & 3:00, bad guy at 12:00. The waist spin that returns you to your own territory will automatically draw the blow back into your own green zone, from 9:00, past 12:00, towards 3:00. The moment of contact, however, should be timed to land with the apical top of the curve about 1 inch into the targets body part. Make sense?

D.

 

[rockky]

If two fighters are in close, and that hook is thrown, I'm wondering if an outward extended block would deflect the hook or would the hook punch circle or slide around the block.

By the way, i think someone mentioned defending a jab... I studied under Bob Perry and Bill Neff; they had renamed, I believe, Shielding Mace as "Boxer Style Left Jab" (to defend against the jab, of course).

 

[Andrew Green]

There are few specifics.

True enough, but I would say some things are pretty consistant, with variation. There are certain do's and don't's and a lot of maybe's. All the pieces need to fit together to make it work.

And that is where I have my doubts about the whole discussion. Your pieces need to fit together. You cannot, for example, stick a shotokan reverse punch into boxing and have it mix well with the standard pieces of that puzzle. It has nothing to do witht he technique and its validity, it just doesn't fit into that puzzle. It relies on different principles and different setups, entries, exits, positioning and footwork.

There may be a kenpo style hook, and it may work great in kenpo, but I don't see the boxing style hook fitting into that puzzle. Diesal in a gas car, just doesn't work.

Now if it is there, I would be curious to see how it fits in and how it is thrown. Because what I see based on the descriptions given so far is not a boxing style hook, it is something else.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

True enough, but I would say some things are pretty consistant, with variation. There are certain do's and don't's and a lot of maybe's. All the pieces need to fit together to make it work.

Agreed, there are do's and don'ts

And that is where I have my doubts about the whole discussion. Your pieces need to fit together. You cannot, for example, stick a shotokan reverse punch into boxing and have it mix well with the standard pieces of that puzzle. It has nothing to do witht he technique and its validity, it just doesn't fit into that puzzle. It relies on different principles and different setups, entries, exits, positioning and footwork.

Disagree. Any tool is useful if you know how to use it. All the punches are just tools. The person makes them work not the style. So yes you can throw a shotokan reverse punch in boxing and have it have effect. Timing is (arguably) the most essential basic of any fighting art. If you time the blow properly and set it up properly it will land regardless of the "style" attached to it as the "style" is just a descriptional tool for discussion.

There may be a kenpo style hook, and it may work great in kenpo, but I don't see the boxing style hook fitting into that puzzle. Diesal in a gas car, just doesn't work.

But you also don't do Kenpo so how would you "see" it fitting in? I do and have done both, the parts are as interchangeable as legos. The only limitation is the ruleset which in fighting does not exist. The analogy you gave of fuel for a motor is a little off as the car may be Kenpo or boxing but the fuel isn't a hook it's body mechanics which can be mixed, matched and adapted. It'd be more like changing the style of mirrors between two different car models. It might not look right or appealing to the naked eye but serves it's function just fine.

Now if it is there, I would be curious to see how it fits in and how it is thrown. Because what I see based on the descriptions given so far is not a boxing style hook, it is something else.

I cannot see what you see when you visualize text. From what I read it all looks the same to me. But my imagery is probably biased from having kickboxed and practiced Kenpo alot. I cannot say I fully understand how you expect to "see" how a 'boxers style hook' fits into Kenpo without having any experience with Kenpo other than seeing and reading about it. It'd be like saying you understand how to repair a diesel engine just because you've seen picture of it running (kenpo/bioxing practice) and of its parts seperatly (hook punches). Do you have more Kenpo experience than what has been presented? If not it is a moot discussion because you will not really understand the perspectives, mechanics, etc.